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Plaatselijk afvallen door training, kan dat?


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Esperantisto

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Tja, na jarenlang gehoord te hebben dat je veel buikspier-oefeningen moest doen om je buikje te verkleinen is nu denk ik iedereen er toch wel van overtuigd dat plaatselijk afvallen niet kan...

Tenminste...

Dat dacht ik. Ik vang hier en daar op, dat dit niet helemaal klopt en dat je wel degelijk plaatselijk vet kunt verliezen.

Kan iemand me er meer over vertellen? Ik merk zelf dat ik strakker word bij de hamstrings, maar dat lijkt me uitsluitend door sterkere spieren te komen.. ik rijd sinds een maand of 3 weer tot volle tevredenheid clipless, waarbij de hamstrings veel meer meewerken. De stiff-legged DL (of Roemeense), good mornings en allerlei gluteus oef hebben natuurlijk ook mee geholpen.. en soms verbeeld ik me dat daar nu veel minder vet zit nu.. ik geloof er eerlijk gezegd geen barst van!


Is er iemand die me meer kan vertellen???

Tja, buikspier oefeningen vind ik nog steeds niet leuk en heb ze van 2 naar 1x per week gebracht, ook al omdat ik meer buikspierpijn lijk te krijgen van de front squat dan van de specifieke oefeningen voor die spier. Vind de front squat (nu ik de techniek onder de knie krijg) ook veel leuker.. lekker macha met die staaf doen!
Zie 'bloed aan de paal' : mijn fietsmaatje haalde al de leus van de korpsmariniers aan (hij was notabene dienstweigeraar): Pijn is fijn (achterhaald), bloed is goed (d8 van niet!) en jeuk is leuk (bij een ander ja :D )


Espi
 

3XL

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Ligt er aan naar wie jew luisterd en waar je geloof aanhecht.

Er is toendertijd dat onderzoek geweest (Ja, er is idd maar 1 onderzoek geweest waar iedereen nu jaren later nog naar verwijst) dat als uitkomst had dat plaatselijke vetverbranding niet mogenlijk was.

Aan de andere kant lees ik regelmatig berichtgeving vanuitde praktijk, en dan voornaamlijk AmeriKaanse coaches, die constateren dat het onder bepaalde omstandigheden wel mogenlijk is (hogere reps ed), en die eigenlijk vinden dat het een heel slecht onderzoek is geweest (duur, controle, gebruikte oefening, enz)


Ik moet zeggen dat ik persoonlijk niemand ken die baat heeft bij honderden sit-up, maar daar staat tegenover dat ik regelmatig post zie van mensen die beweren het wel te hebben.

Dus de enige manier om hier echt achter te komen is gewoon proberen
 

RichardV

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Hey 3XL, ik ben hier ook een beetje over aan het twijfelen, maar ik dacht het volgende:

1 pond spieren verbranden in rust meer als een pond vet.

Dus als je ter plaatse van je buik bijvoorbeeld gespierder wordt, kan het dan zo zijn dat misschien de spieren in hun buurt de vetreserves gaan gebruiken om af te vallen.
Bijvoorbeeld op mijn benen, heb ik in vergelijking met mijn buik bijna geen vet (en ik weet dat een man bij zijn buik meer vet zal opslaan als bij zijn benen of armen) en mijn benen train ik 1 keer in de week, en mijn buik eigenlijk zelden.

Wat vinden jullie van deze stelling??
 

Esperantisto

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Nou, baat het niet dan schaadt het ook niet..
Ik moet zeggen dat de grootste fanatiekelingen die buikspieren trainen ook erg mooie buikspieren HEBBEN. Maar was dat nu de kip of het ei...
Afijn, als ik er in mocht slagen om voor tienen op de sportschool te zijn kan ik bijna elke dag terecht voor 10-15 min buikspierles.. leuker dan in je eentje jezelf afbeulen.

En als beloning kijk je meestal naar een erg leuk uitziende manspersoon.. :lol: Tenminste.. ik moet maar eens navragen wie wanneer les geeft! :D

Espi, ook niet op 'r achterhoofd gevallen
 

Esperantisto

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O ja.. ik heb het ook eens gevraagd op de super-bijna-gortdroog-wetenschappelijke discussielijst Supertraining. Dus ik hoop binnenkort wat praktijkervaring cq. onderzoekservaring terug te krijgen..

Ik houd jullie op de hoogte!

Espi
 

Alessandro

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Dat kan niet! Het is het grote fabeltje dat met name onder veel vrouwen aangehangen wordt.
Maar helaas kun je zelf niet bepalen waar je vet weg haalt, dat doet het lichaam zelf(en dan niet altijd waar wij het het liefst zouden willen helaas.)
 

3XL

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[Link niet meer beschikbaar] Training:
New Insights (September 1996 IRONMAN)
by Fred Koch
It's probably the most common question not only in bodybuilding but in all of fitness: Is it possible to spot train? Is it possible to burn localized fat with high-repetition weight training? No matter who you ask, you1ll get an unequivocal answer: no. There1s no such thing as spot training.

Bodybuilders and fitness enthusiasts alike take that no as gospelÐexcept, of course, that we're always secretly hoping it isn1t true. Why else would so many of us do hundreds of reps for the midsection when we don't train any other bodypart that way?

Maybe it's just instinctive. Bodybuilders have traditionally used this kind of high-rep training on their abdominals, despite the general belief that spot training doesn't work. When all the scientific evidence is finally in, however, it may turn out that the bodybuilders1 instincts were right.

The common belief about high reps and spot reduction is based on a study performed at the University of Massachusetts. The results of the study, titled "Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity," were published in a 1984 issue of Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport (Vol. 55., No. 3). At the time of the study the scientists used the latest data they had on localized fat reduction. I suggest that we1ve learned a few things since thenÐand that the premises and circumstances of the study may no longer apply.

The funny thing is, while people in the fitness industry all seem to know that there was some experiment that proved that spot reduction doesn1t work, almost no one is familiar with the research. During a recent seminar for personal trainers I conducted, I asked the crowd if anyone knew about this study or the criteria under which it was performed. To my amazement I discovered that not one of the highly trained individuals knew anything about it. Whether they knew it or not, however, their opinion on spot reducing was based on this study.

The experiment1s premise was to see if it was possible to burn fat in the stomach area by performing situps. The subjects used the standard bent-legs, elbow-to-knee situps we all did back in high school gym class. Thirteen male subjects took part in the 27-day experiment. On day 1 they did situps for 10 rounds of 10 seconds each, getting roughly seven reps per set, with 10 seconds1 rest between sets; and by the 27th day they worked up to 14 rounds of 30 seconds each, getting roughly 24 reps, with 10 seconds1 rest. Choice of Exercise

The problems with this experiment begin with the exercise used. I'm sure that almost everyone in the fitness industry today would agree that situps as they were performed in 1984 are not the exercise of choice for the abdominals. We1ve known for years that the situp performed on a flat floor is more of a hip flexor exercise and that the work done by the abs is mostly an isometric contraction. That in itself should be enough to set off buzzers about this study.

Then you have to consider how those situps were probably performed. Have you ever watched someone perform a high-rep set of situps? People never use perfect form on these. Instead, they use these jerky rock 1n1 roll-type movements that are not full contractions of the abdominals. Today we know that to work the abdominals effectively, the movement must be a perfect contraction of the abs through a full range of motion.

What's more, we also know that it takes a variety of resistance to work all the fibers in the target muscles to their maximum potential. You can't add resistance to situps, however; you1re limited to the weight of your body. Consequently, you may not be able to hit all the fibers in the target muscles with that movement. Definition of High Reps

This brings up several questions, not the least of which involves the energy systems used for the short bouts of exercise in the experiment. In 1984 the subjects worked up to 30 seconds of continuous energy. Today, we know that it takes at least two minutes of exercise for the fatty acids to kick in as fuel, with the ATP-PC cycle going to work for the first five to 10 seconds and glycolysis taking over at around 20 seconds.

In 1984 the term "high reps" was generally considered to mean 20 to 25. In 1996 the term has been redefined.

In traditional sports training athletes do high reps in the 70-to-100 range. Tudor Bompa, Ph.D. pointed this out to me once. As you may know, Tudor is one of the most respected sports-training experts in the world. He wasn1t very familiar with bodybuilders when I first met him though, so he saw things from a different perspective.

In the world of Olympic sports such as swimming and track and field, many athletes train on a periodization program that includes a muscle-endurance phase in which they work up to reps of 100 or more per set for a series of exercises. For example, they might do squats followed by crunches, bench presses and curl-grip, or underhand, lat pulldowns. That means performing up to 400 reps in a row.

Tudor was describing how the athletes got what he called a 3stringy look2 in their muscles during the endurance phase, and that set off a buzzer with me. He didn1t know bodybuilding terminology. Could what Tudor referred to as "stringy" be the exact condition that competitive bodybuilders seek to achieveÐthat is, cut?

I subsequently brought up this point with a top cellular-research scientist I know. Why is fat intertwined with muscle? Is it there just to protect the body? Fat has numerous jobs in the body, from protection, to creating heat to fueling energy needs. Since fat is a fuel, doesn1t it seem strange that we cannot burn this fat as fuel? What about the fatty acid in the blood, which we can even measure? There were no answers to my questions.

Adaptation Time

I also had questions about the length of the 1984 study. Twenty-seven days is not enough time to adapt to high-rep training. As you1ll recall, the subjects only worked up to 30 seconds. Based on the experiences of athletes using periodized training during a 12-week muscle-endurance phase, it can take eight weeks for the body to adapt to the high-rep training before it starts using fat as fuel during the final four weeks. At first you1re going to get the burn of your life due to lactic acid building up around the muscle and stopping it from contracting. Only after you build up your endurance can you make the shift and get the benefit.

What About the Diet?

The subjects in the study were college students, and the journal report made no mention of monitoring their diets. As I see it, this is a significant problem. How can you know why there is no significant change in fat levels if you don1t control what they eat? If those subjects were like the college students I know, I can only imagine what their diets were like. This is another reason why I think the researchers1 conclusions about spot reducing with high reps to be in error.

So What1s the Bottom Line on Spot Reduction?

Current research on circuit training with weights shows that an hour of that type of exercise burns more fat than an hour of aerobics. That helps explain why athletes who perform a series of high-rep exercises achieve natural muscular definition with low bodyfat. I believe that this holds true for specific areas of the body.

If you could do arm curls for three minutes without producing lactic acid, is it possible that you1d use up the ATP, begin using other systems and burn fatty acid as fuel in your biceps? Theoretically, it is, but three solid minutes of curling is a lot to ask of the typical musclehead.

The answer is to periodize your training. Your muscles will adapt to high-rep training if you take your time, including a phase like the muscle-endurance phase of a periodized sports program. You don1t have to use a lot of weight. Working your way up to 80 to 100 reps over a 12-week phase with a planned loading pattern will enable your body to adapt to this fat-burning process. The same holds true for abdominal exercise.

A focused program building up to ultrahigh reps of resistance-based exercises can1t help but have a positive effect on your midsection. If you1re lucky enough to be able to train on an Ab Bench, you get the extra benefit of a complete range of motion. (Unlike the partial contraction you get with crunch movements performed on the floor and all other ab machines, this device features a prestretch and complete contraction.)

I predict that science will prove my theory right. The accompanying statements by a number of experts indicate a whole new world of possibilities. While there will never be a miracle cure that enables someone with a big stomach to do hundreds of ab reps and get a washboard midsection, there is a way to strip off that last layer of fatÐsomething that should make a lot of bodybuilders very happy.

Frank Katch, Ph.D., of the University of Massachusetts is the co-author of Exercise Physiology (Lea & Febiger, fourth edition) and the author of what is probably the most quoted study in fitness history, "The Effects of Situp Exercise Training on Adipose Cell Size and Adiposity." When this study was first published in 1984, it was considered the most professional of its kind ever performed. Based on this study, most people in the fitness industry believe that it's impossible to burn fat with localized high-repetition weight training. When interviewed for this article, Katch made it clear that until there is a definite measuring tool, such a study done with magnetic resonance imaging, to determine if fat does come out of fat cells, he stands by his study and believes that it is still valid. Although everyone still quotes his study, Katch said that, other than my call, he hasn1t been contacted for his opinion on the subject for the last five years.
 

Esperantisto

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Nou 3xl je wordt bedankt! :scratch:
Kan ik die kloterige ab-trainer weer eens gaan gebruiken... ik had gehoopt dat ding niet meer aan te hoeven raken! :(

Gelukkig doe ik zonder moeite 5000 reps voor mijn hamstrings, alleen door heen en weer naar de sportschool te fietsen en te concentreren op het optillen van de pedalen ipv het neerstampen (ronde tred vs. vierkante tred heet dat in wielertermen!)
 

wateengedoe2

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OMG... Ik WIL helemaal niet dat dit waar is! :D ;) Nou ja, ik ga dus echt geen honderden reps met buikspieroefeningen doen hè (zo'n ding wat zij daar noemen, hebben wij niet eens). Ga gewoon lekker cutten en dan cardio doen (nou ja, 'cardio' dan, niet de hoog-intensieve soort .. hoe heet dat 3XL?) ... Maar kan me wel indenken dat het voor dat laatste procentje ofzo voor prof-BBers best wat kan zijn ..
 

3XL

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Vergeet ook niet dat highrep ab-training de solar-plexus stimuleert zodat de bijnierschors de afgifte van stresshormonen verhoogd. Ook niet echt bevoordelijk
 

Esperantisto

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Gelukkig, ik was al bang dat ik elke dag die stomme abs-oefeningen moest gaan doen.. nou ja, heb toch vandaag even rekenen: 50-30-20-15 plus 200 plus 26 plus 30 = 371 reps gedaan.. die 200 waren dus met zo'n bezemsteel: draaien naar links en rechts.

1 of 2x per week gaat nog...ik zou al depri worden van het idee elke (andere) dag abs te moeten gaan trainen..

Espi
 

3XL

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Originally posted by Esperantisto
Gdie 200 waren dus met zo'n bezemsteel: draaien naar links en rechts.
Espi


De meest idiote waardeloze oefening die ik ooit gezien heb, en ik snap echt niet dat sportscholen mensen nog steeds deze oefening laten doen.

Wat denk je te hiermee te bereiken?

Als je de transversus abdominis wilt trainen kan je beter vacuumoefeningen en belaste rotary oefeningen doen
 

Deejay_Spike

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mensen denken daarmee hun obliques te trainen...

HAH
 

Esperantisto

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Nou, die bezemsteel was maar een ideetje hoor. Ik dacht dat dat de schuine buikspieren op een makkelijke manier trainde..
Vacuum , belaste rotary?
Leg eens uit graag.. ik kan ook gaan googelen hoor, maar nuje toch bezig bent..

Espi
 

3XL

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We blijven heen en weer gaan he :D:D

Belaste rotary oefeningen lijken op dat gedoe met die bezemsteel, alleen doe je het tegen een weerstand (dus een hoge pully of een speciaal app.)

Ik weet dat er een paar site's zijn met plaatjes erbij, maar mischien dat je aan de verklaring genoeg heb :D


Simply retract your abdominal wall as far back as possible while breathing out completely and then attempt to keep it that way even as you recommence breathing. Doing this for 5 minutes is hard and demands extreme focus, but it's a technique well worth learning. Arnold said in his book "The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding " that it is easier to practice them while on all fours at first. I've been doing them standing because it's more practical and efficient, from the beginning, but if you find this too hard, it may be a solution.

[Abeelding niet meer beschikbaar]
 

Esperantisto

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Ik denk dat ik weet wat je bedoelt met die rotary..
Terwijl ze in Lienden dus een abdominal machine hebben waar je crunches met tegengewicht kunt doen hebben ze in Wageningen bij Copacabana, waar WEG (en vroeger ik) traint/de zo'n apparaat waar je links- en rechtsom draait, precies zoals je dus met die bezemsteel doet..

Vacuüm: lekker hoor dat vacuüm trekken.. Uh.:eek:
Is zo'n oefening die je kunt doen zonder dat iemand het ziet.. doet me (ff off-topic) denken aan de oefening die aangeraden werd aan vrouwen om betere orgasmes te bereiken: je bekkenbodemspieren aantrekken.. sommigen kunnen het dan zonder handjes. Bij plassen ook oefenen met streepjes plassen zoals dat heet..

TMI? :gosh:
Espi
 

3XL

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Je bedoeld oefeningen voor de puboccocceygeus (kegel oefeningen)?

Is er niet alleen voor vrouwen hoor

[Link niet meer beschikbaar]
 

Esperantisto

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Dit wilde ik de mannen (en vrouwen) van DBB toch niet onthouden..

Dit moet ff gesleurd en gepleurd worden.. Bedenk.. dit zijn oef voor duurvermogen, kracht wordt niet verlangd!

Why should men do kegel exercises regularly?

- kegel exercises increase the bloodflow to the genital area, and so support coïtusual arousal mechanisms.

- kegel exercises strengthen and tone the muscles that are involved in ejaculation, and so men who Kegel can, if they do some additional work with themselves, gain greater control over the timing of their ejaculations.

- kegel exercises prevent incontinence and other problems that are often associated with aging.

Why should women do kegel exercises regularly?

- kegel exercises increase the bloodflow to the genital area, and so support coïtusual arousal mechanisms.

- kegel exercises strengthen and tone the muscles of the vaginal canal, and so women who Kegel can, if vaginal stimulation is their choice, and if they do some additional work on themselves, improve their capacity to orgasm by means of vaginal play, in terms of both the intensity and the frequency of their orgasming.

- kegel exercises are essential to the treatment of coïtusual difficulties such as vaginismus and dyspareunia (pain on vaginal intercourse).

- kegel exercises prevent incontinence, prolapses, and many other problems of the pelvic floor that are often associated with aging.

- kegel exercises strengthen and tone the musculature of the pelvic area in a way that can make vaginal delivery during childbirth easier.


How do I find my PC muscles?

Go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet (men, it is also a good idea to sit for this).

In the middle of your stream of urine, stop and start the stream several times. The muscles you use to do this are your PC muscles. At first, you may find that you are also squeezing your anal muscles; as you become experienced with kegel exercises, try to separate out the muscle groups that you are able to exercise by squeezing.

How do I do regular kegel exercises?

Now that you have located your PC muscles, you can exercise them while your bladder is completely empty.

First, try squeezing your PC muscles as hard as you can for a count of three seconds. Then let them relax. To begin with, see how many times you can do this before the muscles feel tired.

Now figure out a suitable exercise routine just as you would if you were trying to tone and strengthen a different muscle group by going to the gym every other day. For example, suppose you start by being able to do only five strong squeezes; try doing three sets of five once or twice a day for a week, and then try increasing this to three sets of eight strong squeezes.

If you work up to three sets of thirty or more strong squeezes, you are probably healthy enough for most purposes, and need only to maintain this level of fitness by doing these three sets four times a week (instead of once or twice a day).

We also recommend that you experiment by varying the type and timing of the PC squeezing you do as you train these muscles: slow clenches, many quick flutters, and so on. This will make you more familiar with these muscles – notice also when your abdominal muscles or your anal muscles feel like they also want to join in the exercise.

Remember, you should try to separate out kegel exercises from anal squeezing. If you are in doubt, go back a refind your PC muscle while urinating.

Once you are skilled at kegel exercises, you should be able to do them without anyone else knowing what you are doing... boring meetings at work, tedious lectures at conferences, and other daily events all become opportunities to work quietly on improving your coïtusual health!
 
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wateengedoe2

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Wel een beetje offtopic, niet? :rologen: Of wil jij soms vet in je ..... verbranden dan, espi? ;) :p
 

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