Refeed informatie

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Monstrous Giant
10 jaar lid
Lid sinds
2 jun 2007
Refeeds, Free Meals
A free meal is just that – a meal without tracking. It is not a binge, just a nice meal so you can enjoy your life. Limit it to about an hour if you need a distinct end time.
Refeeds are different. They’re a big whack of carbs with moderate protein and very little fat. Guidelines will be developed below.

How often:

Do refeeds every 7 days, on training days only. Workout any time you like – you’ll have carbs in you all day.

Refeeds stay unless you are at maintenance, in which case you can have one free meal every week or two depending on what you can get away with.

Some background on refeeds
For this discussion, refeeds are about two things:
· To provide a psychological break from dieting
· To stimulate leptin. We want the body to feel as if it is in the fed state.

How are these refeeds done - what is the calorie limit to these days? What deficit do people run to have them?

From the UD 2.0:
For the most part, total carbohydrate intake is the key aspect, so let's look at that first. Assuming full glycogen depletion, which you should have achieved if you followed the recommendations, somewhere between 12 and 16 g/kg of lean body mass is the magic number here. That works out to approximately 7-8 grams of carbs/lb of lean body mass for the metric impaired. A lighter lifter with 70kg (154 lbs) of LBM will be eating 1000-1200 grams of carbohydrates over this 24 hour span from Thursday night to Friday bedtime. Larger lifters consume more and lighter lifters consume less.

So, the 'ultimate' refeed for when all of your glycogen is depleted, requirements are as high as 12-16 g/kg LBM ( 5-7 g/lb LBM.)

5-hr refeeds are the ones recommended for the PSMF or Flexible Diet when one gets 1 free meal and 1 5-hr refeed.

Fructose limits for refeeds · <100g sucrose
· <50g fructose (several pieces of fruit)
Carbohydrate dosings
· 5hr refeeds: 3-6 g/kg LBM (1-3g/lb LBM)
· 1 day refeeds: 8-12 g/kg LBM (4-5g/lb LBM)
· 2 day refeeds: 4-6 g/kg LBM (2-3g/lb LBM) (on both days, so it works out to the same total amount as the 1-day refeed)

An interesting phenomenon of the short refeed is that one can continue to lean out on that day of overfeeding, provided fat intake isn't high as the surplus carbs that go into fat cells aren't linked to fatty acids that way and remain there as glycerol (the backbone of a triglyceride is glycerol = made from carbohydrate). The next day, the glycerol will leave the fat cells to be used for exercise.

In the old days of Dan Duchaine, Body Opus made you do a depletion workout before a carb-load.

In the new days of Lyle McD, UD2.0 makes you do a power WO (low reps) right after a refeed, then 2 days of depletion workouts.

An example:
The kg-based dosings above suggest 3g-10g of carbohydrate per pound LBM.

For someone at around 50kg LBM (110 lbs lean mass), 3g/kg works out to 150g, and 10g/kg works out to 500g carb.

My feeling is that something around 400-500g (about 4-5g/lb LBM) carb would probably "fit" most unassisted females. At the very least, it’s a starting point.

A bit of sugar or fruit for fructose is good for liver glycogen under these circumstances, but no more than, say, a half a gram per pound LBM for the day.

Although there is no set limit, there of course will be a limit to how much a person can successfully refeed on, and it's obviously going to be based on LBM and other differences between individuals. Clearly, the bigger you are, the more you can, and should, be eating.

For most versions of refeeds I’ve read, protein appears to be in the usual gram or more per pound LBM, and can be kept at whatever daily level is normal for the individul.
On a refeed, fat should be kept quite low – certainly no more than half a gram per pound LBM.

For someone like me, who maintains on 2200-2300 and diets on 1950 with over 150g protein, this would look like:
· 600 calories from protein
· 450 calories from fat
· 1600 calories from carb

About 2650 calories in total. And about 20% over maintenance. Okay, interesting. This is in keeping with recommendations suggesting multiplying maintenance calories by 1.1 or 1.2

Assuming we have not created drastically low leptin levels, our refeed will be between 20 and 50% ABOVE maintenance, for 12-48 hours -- the higher the calories, the shorter the refeed -- there are arguments in support of both. If they are drastically low, 5-7 days of 20% above is recommended. In general, the lower you are below your natural bodyfat setpoint, and the longer or more drastic your diet, the more frequent the refeed.
Because we are eating above maintenance, we are most likely accepting some fat gain (though, if leptin levels are really low, the opposite could very well occur due to increases in metabolic rate as leptin is increased), so we want to get the most bang for our buck. Thus, our primary macronutrient will be carbohydrates that enter the blood as glucose -- this means glucose, glucose polymers such as maltodextrin, and starches. Insulin also potentiates glucose stimulated leptin production thus high GI carbs are most ideal.

Protein should be 1g/lb, and a bit of fat and fructose in foods you enjoy is acceptable, but the rest is non-fructose carbohydrates.

What to eat for the carbup
Acceptable choices would include anything low sugar, low fat, and low fiber (to reduce bloating/bulk). Any of the normal carbs in your diet may be used (sweet potato, brown rice, oats), plus things like baked chips, pretzels, white rice, bread, white potatoes, noodles and so on.

Other choices could include low-fat muffins, pancakes, waffles, oatmeal with banana & blueberries, cinnamon graham crackers, rice krispy treats, cereal with skim milk, english muffins, fig newtons, pretzels, and cinnamon/sugar pita chips.

So, the next question I'll ask: where in the day does the workout come in - is there a depletion workout ahead of time, or just "business as usual"? My feeling is that you'd just tuck your workout somewhere in the middle, and have a GREAT workout. That's how I tend to do these, at any rate.

Erik Ledin fills in some details:

I start at 5 hour refeeds because I believe that's the shortest period of time that's been shown to have a positive effect on leptin levels.

That said, I'd think it'd be minimal and it would take a couple days of refeeding to get a pronounced effect. The body just doesn't adjust things that fast.

5-hour refeeds are basically 2-3 meals at the end of the day. The protein portion of the meal stays the same (as part of the diet already) and any fat, outside of fish oils, that is found in the diet (those meals carbs are being added) before the refeed, is dropped.
Carb sources can vary widely. There's nothing wrong with having some sugar. I don't put restrictive numbers on fat intake or sugar intake. I say to use common sense and be mindful of the goals of being conscious of sugar and fat intake - trying to keep it down, generally speaking. I only put a limit on the total carb grams to shoot for. And I could care less if people say how many grams of carbs they're consuming.

It comes on a training day, whether 5-6 hours or full day.
Calories - I don't care where it ends up. Full day refeeds - the goal is significantly more calories than normally being consumed. 5-6 hour refeeds, again, I don't care, because it really doesn't matter.
So, the progression I might use could be something like ...
· 5-6 hours once a week
· 5-6 hours twice a week or full day instead
· 1-2 weeks of maintenance eating

How it's implemented and when things are timed is based on the individual and their rate of progress, or lack thereof.

Oh, and no depletion workouts.

He continues:
This is what I usually eat for refeeds ....
· Rice krispie squares
· Raspberry fruit bars
· Bagels like they're going out of style
· Various cereals
· And baked chips.

I pretty much do the same thing every time. For a while I was consuming almost 1400g carbs in one day when I was dieting earlier in the year. Fun at first, but it got hard as the day wore on.

How much of a caloric deficit does one run to benefit from this strategy?

I don't believe there is a one size fits all answer to this. Reference my point on using rate of progress or lack thereof as the key barometer.

I don't think it's so much the deficit itself that's important, but rather one, how long you're in it, and two, how lean you are.

I honestly only use the 5-6 hour refeeds to set up for the full day ones. I really don't believe they have an impact on the regulatory hormones, at least not to any significant degree. Or as a kind of 'diet break' where it's not a full-blown no holds barred cheat, but still an opportunity to let loose a bit and have some food that's not normally being eaten. It tends to help with dietary compliance. And at least an argument *can* be made for a physiological benefit, which can't be said for isolated cheat meals.

True enough. But from what I've read, the deeper the deficit, the larger the refeed. Also the leaner the individual, the larger the refeed.

I wouldn't argue that, no. But again, how long you're in the deeper deficit is more important I think.

For someone running a 20+% deficit for many months, a strategy like this, once a week, at least 20% over MAINTENANCE calories, seems to be minimal, yes?

1. Yes, although a 20% deficit is pretty 'tame'. Assuming the average maintenance (for the sake of argument) being 15xTBW, a 20% deficit has you at 12XTBW, which is a good starting point, but unfortunately still too high for some. Mind you, that would imply that the 15XTBW figure probably isn't truly maintenance I guess ...

2. I don't calculate refeed day calories so I can't answer that part. My goals with refeeds are one, a specific number of carbs and two, simply 'lots more calories'. Wherever they fall, they fall, but yes generally they'll be a certain % above maintenance.

And by "set up" for the full ones - you mean, to let them ease into it psychologically, or some physiological benefit again?

The former. Some people seem to have a hard time with them at first.
To finish up: Berardi suggests keeping up with the fish oil for leptin

Another interesting hypothesis is that fish oil can positively impact Leptin concentrations and Leptin action. While all of the current data is in rats, it appears that dietary fish oil can acutely increase plasma Leptin concentrations, increasing metabolic rate and decreasing hunger. If this were to occur during dieting, it would be beneficial in preventing metabolic decline. "

Handige info ^^
inderdaad usefull peace!
refeed moet toch alleen, als je onder een x aantal % vet zit met het cutten?
refeed moet toch alleen, als je onder een x aantal % vet zit met het cutten?

Dat niet alleen, het is ook afhankelijk van hoeveel (of beter gezegd hoe weing) koolhydraten je eet. Hoe minder KH, hoe meer je depleted bent en oe beter een refeed zal zjn voor je. Dergelijke technieken zijnn echter sowieso bedoeld voor mensen die al redelijk slank zijn. UD2.0 wordt aangeraden voor mensen onder de 12% (of was het nu toch 15 ?). Tot die tijd voldoet een norml dieet prima, en zal een ingewikkeld dieet het niet beter doen. (voor mensen die het volhuden dan, een low carb dieet schijnt prima te helpen om een dieet vol te houden voor echte dikkerds die anders al lang gestopt zouden zijn).

Handige info ^^

Ik zet gelijk m'n printertje aan!
Heel duidelijke tekst, ik wist wel dat je 't beste met veel carbs moest refeeden maar niet zo specifiek, top!:thumb:
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