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STH zorgt voor afname t3?
- Topic starter ECLIPSE
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hey heb hier een en ander, gaat meer over de combi t3+gh..:
Countering T3 induced muscle loss with AAS or prohormones makes sense from a physiological viewpoint as well. Thyroid hormone muscle protein breakdown is mainly mediated via the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. (12). (There are several independent metabolic pathways of protein breakdown in the body. For instance, another pathway, the lysosomal pathway, is responsible for the accelerated rate of muscle protein breakdown during and after exercise.) Testosterone administration has been shown to decrease ubiquitin-proteasome activity. (13) So AAS specifically target the muscle protein breakdown process stimulated by T3.
What may not be an effective strategy to maintain muscle mass during a T3 cycle is the use of exogenous growth hormone (GH). Studies have shown that when GH and T3 are administered concurrently, the increased nitrogen retention normally associated with GH use is abolished. This has been attributed to the observation that T3 increases levels of insulin like growth factor binding protein, reducing the bioavailability of igf-1 (14). Nevertheless, GH has fat burning properties independent of igf-1, so using GH with T3 would act additively to speed fat burning, but with little if any preservation of lean body mass. So again, if GH is used in conjunction with T3, anabolic steroid/prohormone use would be indicated.
The article is here, [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
it's called "Thyroid Hormone for Weight Loss: Physiologic and Metabolic Effects
by Nandi"
Countering T3 induced muscle loss with AAS or prohormones makes sense from a physiological viewpoint as well. Thyroid hormone muscle protein breakdown is mainly mediated via the so-called ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. (12). (There are several independent metabolic pathways of protein breakdown in the body. For instance, another pathway, the lysosomal pathway, is responsible for the accelerated rate of muscle protein breakdown during and after exercise.) Testosterone administration has been shown to decrease ubiquitin-proteasome activity. (13) So AAS specifically target the muscle protein breakdown process stimulated by T3.
What may not be an effective strategy to maintain muscle mass during a T3 cycle is the use of exogenous growth hormone (GH). Studies have shown that when GH and T3 are administered concurrently, the increased nitrogen retention normally associated with GH use is abolished. This has been attributed to the observation that T3 increases levels of insulin like growth factor binding protein, reducing the bioavailability of igf-1 (14). Nevertheless, GH has fat burning properties independent of igf-1, so using GH with T3 would act additively to speed fat burning, but with little if any preservation of lean body mass. So again, if GH is used in conjunction with T3, anabolic steroid/prohormone use would be indicated.
The article is here, [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
it's called "Thyroid Hormone for Weight Loss: Physiologic and Metabolic Effects
by Nandi"
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2
CONTEST ENTRY - Should T3 be added to a cycle of GH and androgens?
Title of the post:
Maybe we shouldn't run T3 with GH
Nandi's apparent opinion on this runs counter to what most people advice. I wanted to get some more input on the subject and see if it could be fleshed out.
I posted this on 10-28-2003 at [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
Thoughts on this?
Here is one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
"There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)
The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:
T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day
The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:
T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32
So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.
It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of AAS is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300
Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.
Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr."
Here is another one of his posts from the same thread, at [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
There are a couple of things about the second study I find interesting. One is how much weight these obese patients were losing on the T3: over a pound a day.
The other thing is how the GH interfered with the weight loss. That is a feature of a number of other studies where large doses of GH were used; in this one 15 IU/day. Insulin resistance becomes an important factor hindering weight loss at those large GH doses. Normally the insulin like effect of IGF-1 helps by lowering the endogenous output of insulin to some degree. IGF-1 as the name implies has an insulin like effect on glucose metabolism, but without interfereing with lipolysis like insulin. So in the presence of elevated IGF-1, the body secretes less insulin, improving fat loss. The problem here I suspect is that by impairing bioavailability of IGF-1, as T3 has been shown to do, the T3 negated the fat burning effect of GH.
Water retention caused by GH is a big factor as well. This is an old study (1970) so when measuring weight loss during GH administration, they did not have access to the sophisticated equipment available today to accurately measure changes in muscle and fat mass. They probably just weighed the subjects and because of the GH induced water retention it looks like they were not losing as much fat as they possibly were.
Here is another one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
T3 and GH use are incompatible. T3 elevates levels of IGF binding protein to the point that they render IGF-1 unbioavailable.
J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9
Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.
Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.
T3 blocks IGF-1 in the liver. Read Nandi's article on t3 that will explain it better then I ever could.
CONTEST ENTRY - Should T3 be added to a cycle of GH and androgens?
Title of the post:
Maybe we shouldn't run T3 with GH
Nandi's apparent opinion on this runs counter to what most people advice. I wanted to get some more input on the subject and see if it could be fleshed out.
I posted this on 10-28-2003 at [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
Thoughts on this?
Here is one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
"There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)
The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:
T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day
The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:
T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32
So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.
It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of AAS is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300
Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.
Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr."
Here is another one of his posts from the same thread, at [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
There are a couple of things about the second study I find interesting. One is how much weight these obese patients were losing on the T3: over a pound a day.
The other thing is how the GH interfered with the weight loss. That is a feature of a number of other studies where large doses of GH were used; in this one 15 IU/day. Insulin resistance becomes an important factor hindering weight loss at those large GH doses. Normally the insulin like effect of IGF-1 helps by lowering the endogenous output of insulin to some degree. IGF-1 as the name implies has an insulin like effect on glucose metabolism, but without interfereing with lipolysis like insulin. So in the presence of elevated IGF-1, the body secretes less insulin, improving fat loss. The problem here I suspect is that by impairing bioavailability of IGF-1, as T3 has been shown to do, the T3 negated the fat burning effect of GH.
Water retention caused by GH is a big factor as well. This is an old study (1970) so when measuring weight loss during GH administration, they did not have access to the sophisticated equipment available today to accurately measure changes in muscle and fat mass. They probably just weighed the subjects and because of the GH induced water retention it looks like they were not losing as much fat as they possibly were.
Here is another one of Nandi12's posts on the subject.
T3 and GH use are incompatible. T3 elevates levels of IGF binding protein to the point that they render IGF-1 unbioavailable.
J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9
Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.
Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Medicine M (Endocrinology and Diabetes), Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: A decline in urea excretion is seen following long-term growth hormone administration, reflecting overall protein anabolism. Conversely, hyperthyroidism is characterized by increased urea synthesis and negative nitrogen metabolism. These seemingly opposite effects are presumed to reflect different actions on peripheral protein metabolism. The extent to which these hormonal systems have different direct effects on hepatic urea genesis has not been fully characterized. METHODS: We measured urea nitrogen synthesis rates and blood alanine levels concomitantly before, during, and after a 4-h constant intravenous infusion of alanine (2 mmol.kg bw-1.h-1). Urea nitrogen synthesis rate was estimated hourly as urinary excretion corrected for gut hydrolysis and accumulation in body water. The slope of the linear relationship between urea nitrogen synthesis rate and alanine concentration represents the liver function as to conversion of amino-N, and is denoted the functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. Eight normal male subjects (age 21-27 years; body mass index 22.4-27.0 kg/m2) were randomly studied four times: 1) after 10 days of subcutaneous saline injections, 2) after 10 days of subcutaneous growth hormone injections (0.1 IU/kg per day), 3) after 10 days of triiodothyronine administration (40 micrograms on even dates, 20 micrograms on uneven dates) and 4) after 10 days given 2)+3). All injections were given at 20 00 h. RESULTS: Growth hormone decreased functional hepatic nitrogen clearance (l/h) by 30% (from 33.8 +/- 3.2 l/h (control) to 23.8 +/- 1.5 l/h (10 days growth hormone) (mean +/- SE) (ANOVA; p < 0.01)). Triiodothyronine did not change functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [36.7 +/- 3.2 l/h), but triiodothyronine given together with growth hormone abolished the effect of growth hormone functional hepatic nitrogen clearance [38.8 +/- 4.8 l/h). CONCLUSIONS: The results show that long-term growth hormone administration acts on liver by decreasing functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, thereby retaining amino-N in the body. Triiodothyronine has no effect on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, but given together with growth hormone, it abolishes the effect of growth hormone on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance. A possible mechanism is the known effect of thyroid hormones in reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth factor-I. Thus, the effects of growth hormone and triiodothyronine on amino-N homeostasis are interdependent and to some extent exerted via interplay in their regulation of liver function as to amino-N conversion.
T3 blocks IGF-1 in the liver. Read Nandi's article on t3 that will explain it better then I ever could.
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hiero nog een dude zn reactie hierop..ironmaster heeft veel ervaring met gh etc:
I have seen the research on this topic and I have discussed it with nandi in the past. Nandi looks at this the way a research scientist would, cause, well......that's what he is. I tend to see it more as a bodybuilder or athlete.
The endocrine system is incredibly complex. It abounds in redundant feedback defense mechanisms to keep everything in balence according to the grand design. Researchers usually study the impact of introducing an exogenous hormone on one of the sub-system defense mechanisms......and often the results appear negative. Exotest shuts down endotest, exoGH may cause insulin resistance, and so on.
Intead, bodybuilders and athletes are interested in knowing how to overcome the defenses as a whole, in order to achieve maximum lean muscle mass, athletic endurance and strength. Show me a study of elite bodybuilders using BIG doses of steroids, GH, insulin and T3. Well, there are none, but I don't need a study to know that today's pro's are the biggest and most ripped men to ever walk the planet......using just such a stack.
So yes, I do believe that exoGH can cause mild hypothyroidism in some folks, and I do think that exoGH and T3 is catabolic.....but I don't really care, cause I would not use just those 2 hormones alone. I'm always going to recommend using test and an oral like anavar with GH, and moderate insulin doses if insulin resistance becomes an issue (or perhaps an insulin sensitising drug), and/or a thyroid med if hypothyroidism is present. Not everyone has problems that require all this. I have rarely felt the need to use T3, with or without GH, to stay lean.
I'm results oriented, and each individual needs to experiment a little with his/her own system to find out what works best for them. You will never make it to the gym if you try to put it all together from the research.
I have seen the research on this topic and I have discussed it with nandi in the past. Nandi looks at this the way a research scientist would, cause, well......that's what he is. I tend to see it more as a bodybuilder or athlete.
The endocrine system is incredibly complex. It abounds in redundant feedback defense mechanisms to keep everything in balence according to the grand design. Researchers usually study the impact of introducing an exogenous hormone on one of the sub-system defense mechanisms......and often the results appear negative. Exotest shuts down endotest, exoGH may cause insulin resistance, and so on.
Intead, bodybuilders and athletes are interested in knowing how to overcome the defenses as a whole, in order to achieve maximum lean muscle mass, athletic endurance and strength. Show me a study of elite bodybuilders using BIG doses of steroids, GH, insulin and T3. Well, there are none, but I don't need a study to know that today's pro's are the biggest and most ripped men to ever walk the planet......using just such a stack.
So yes, I do believe that exoGH can cause mild hypothyroidism in some folks, and I do think that exoGH and T3 is catabolic.....but I don't really care, cause I would not use just those 2 hormones alone. I'm always going to recommend using test and an oral like anavar with GH, and moderate insulin doses if insulin resistance becomes an issue (or perhaps an insulin sensitising drug), and/or a thyroid med if hypothyroidism is present. Not everyone has problems that require all this. I have rarely felt the need to use T3, with or without GH, to stay lean.
I'm results oriented, and each individual needs to experiment a little with his/her own system to find out what works best for them. You will never make it to the gym if you try to put it all together from the research.
