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Rare geneesmiddelen encyclopedie die zegt dat clomid anders werkt dan nolvadex. (beide zwakke estrogenen)
En oorspronkelijk is het dus geen middel voor mannen...
Nolvadex VS Clomid
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En oorspronkelijk is het dus geen middel voor mannen...
El Comandante
Massive Warrior
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Da's HCG ook niet. Maar daar gaat het helemaal niet om.
'Wij' gebruiken medicamenten expres in grotere doses omdat ze op die manier een gunstige uitwerking op de spier-ontwikkeling hebben.
Nolvadex wordt voorgeschreven aan patienten met borstkanker of na een borstkanker-operatie.
Wie de bijsluiter goed leest ziet wat Nolvadex doet.
Dat heeft werkelijk met de beste wil van de wereld NIKS met de test-productie van een man te maken.
Echter, de positieve werking van Clomid op de vruchtbaarheid van de vrouw heeft ook z'n voordelen bij de man.
Sinds kort zijn er steeds meer artsen die tests aan het doen zijn bij ex-BB'ers met serieuze viriliteitsproblemen.
Hode doses Clomid worden daarvoor gebruikt en met succes.
Nolvadex dient slechts om de verdere vorming van gynocomastica tegen te gaan, terugdringen kan het al niet eens.
Nolvadex is daarnaast een erg smerig, zéér toxisch goedje dat bij langere inname juist kan zorgen voor een toename van de kwaal. Dit heb ik uit officiele medische kringen in de familie dus voor mij geen discussie waard.
Als je probeert na te kuren met Nolvadex sla je de plank compleet mis want Nolvadex heeft gewoon niks met zaadproductie en viriliteit te maken. Het stopt verdere vorming van oestrogeen-gerelateerde kwalen en that's it.
Bovendien stopt Nolvadex de aanmaak van lichaamseigen HGH en dat lichaamseigen HGH heb je keihard nodig aangezien het een belangrijke stof is voor de werking van de anabole substanties in je lichaam.
Veel atleten zagen hun progressie verminderen nadat ze Nolvadex in hun kuur gingen gebruiken.
'Wij' gebruiken medicamenten expres in grotere doses omdat ze op die manier een gunstige uitwerking op de spier-ontwikkeling hebben.
Nolvadex wordt voorgeschreven aan patienten met borstkanker of na een borstkanker-operatie.
Wie de bijsluiter goed leest ziet wat Nolvadex doet.
Dat heeft werkelijk met de beste wil van de wereld NIKS met de test-productie van een man te maken.
Echter, de positieve werking van Clomid op de vruchtbaarheid van de vrouw heeft ook z'n voordelen bij de man.
Sinds kort zijn er steeds meer artsen die tests aan het doen zijn bij ex-BB'ers met serieuze viriliteitsproblemen.
Hode doses Clomid worden daarvoor gebruikt en met succes.
Nolvadex dient slechts om de verdere vorming van gynocomastica tegen te gaan, terugdringen kan het al niet eens.
Nolvadex is daarnaast een erg smerig, zéér toxisch goedje dat bij langere inname juist kan zorgen voor een toename van de kwaal. Dit heb ik uit officiele medische kringen in de familie dus voor mij geen discussie waard.
Als je probeert na te kuren met Nolvadex sla je de plank compleet mis want Nolvadex heeft gewoon niks met zaadproductie en viriliteit te maken. Het stopt verdere vorming van oestrogeen-gerelateerde kwalen en that's it.
Bovendien stopt Nolvadex de aanmaak van lichaamseigen HGH en dat lichaamseigen HGH heb je keihard nodig aangezien het een belangrijke stof is voor de werking van de anabole substanties in je lichaam.
Veel atleten zagen hun progressie verminderen nadat ze Nolvadex in hun kuur gingen gebruiken.
Grote spuit
Cool Novice
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Clomid is anders ook niet echt fris hoor, lees onderstaand stuk maar. Dat heb ik van het ezboard forum geplukt, met dank aan Hercules.
Table 2.
Incidence Of Adverse Events in Clinical Studies
((Events Greater than 1%) > n = 8029* ’)
Adverse Event %
Ovarian Enlargement 13.6
Vasomotor Flushes 10.4
Abdominal-Pelvic Discomfort/Distention/Bloating 5.5
Nausea and Vomiting 2.2
Breast Discomfort 2.1
Visual Symptoms
Blurred vision, lights, floaters, waves, unspecified visual complaints, photophobia, diplopia, scotomata, phosphenes
1.5
Headache 1.3
Abnormal uterine Bleeding, Intermenstrual spotting, menorrhagia 1.3
Includes 495 patients whose reports may have been duplicated in the event totals and could not be distinguished as such. Also, excludes 47 patients who did not report symptom data.
The following adverse events have been reported in fewer than 1% of patients in clinical trails: Acute abdomen, appetite increase, constipation, dermatitis or rash, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, fatigue, hair loss/dry hair, increased urinary frequency/volume, insomnia, light-headedness, nervous tension, vaginal dryness, vertigo, weight gain/loss.
Patients on prolonged clomiphene citrate tablets USP therapy may show elevated serum levels of desmoschol. This is most likely due to a direct interference with cholesterols synthesis. However, the serum sterols in patients receiving the recommended dose of clomiphene citrate tablets USP are not significantly altered. Ovarian cancer has been infrequently reported in patients who have received fertility drugs. Infertility is a primary risk factor for ovarian cancer; however, epidemiology data suggest that prolonged use of clomiphene citrate tablets USP may increase the risk of a borderline or invasive ovarian tumor.
Postmarketing Adverse Events
The following adverse experiences were reported spontaneously with clomiphene citrate tablets USP. The cause and effect relationship of the listed events to the administration of clomiphene citrate tablets USP is not known.
Dermatologic: Acne, allergic reaction, erythema, erythema multiforme, erythema nodosum, hypertrichosis, pruritus.
Central Nervous System: Migraine headache, paresthesia, seizure, stroke, syncope.
Psychiatric: Anxiety irritability, mood changes, psychosis.
Visual Disorders: Abnormal accommodation, cataract, eye pain, macular edema, optic neuritis, photopsia, posterior vitreous detachment, retinal hemorrhage, retinal thrombosis, retinal vascular spasm, temporary loss of vision.
Cardiovascular: Arrhythmia, chest pain, edema, hypertension, palpitation, phlebitis, pulmonary embolism, shortness of breath, tachycardia, thrombophlebitis.
Musculoskeletal: Arthralgia, back pain, myalgia.
Hepatic: Transaminases increased, hepatitis.
Neoplasms: Liver (hepatic hemangiosarcoma, liver cell adenoma, hepatocellular carcinoma); breast (fibrocystic disease, breast carcinoma); endometrium (endometrial carcinoma); nervous system (astrocytoma, pituitary tumor, prolactinoma, neurofibromatosis, glioblastoma multiforme, brain abcess); ovary (luteoma of pregnancy, dermoid cyst of the ovary, ovarian carcinoma); trophoblastic (hydatiform mole, choriocarcinoma); miscellaneous (melanoma, myeloma, perianal cysts, renal cell carcinoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, tongue carcinoma, bladder carcinoma); and neoplasms of offspring (neuroectodermal tumor, thyroid tumor, hepatoblastoma, lymphocytic leukemia).
Genitourinary: Endometriosis, ovarian cyst (ovarian enlargement or cysts could, as such, be complicated by adnexal torsion), ovarian hemorrhage, tubal pregnancy, uterine hemorrhage Body as a Whole: Fever, tinnitus, weakness.
Other: Leukocytosis, th roid disorder.
Fetal/Neoastal Anomalies
The following fetal abnormalities have also been reported postmarketing surveillance: delayed development; abnormal bone development including skeletal malformations of the skull, face, nasal passages, jaw, hand, limb (ectromelia including amelia, hemimelia, and phocomelia), foot, and joints; tissue malformations including imperforate anus, tracheoesophageal fistula, diaphragmatic hernia, renal agenesis and dysgenesis, and malformations of the eye and lens (cataract), ear, lung, heart (ventricular septal defect and tetralogy of Fallot), and genitalia; as well as dwarfism, deafness, mental retardation, chromosomal disorders, and neural t.b. defects (including anencephaly).
Table 2.
Incidence Of Adverse Events in Clinical Studies
((Events Greater than 1%) > n = 8029* ’)
Adverse Event %
Ovarian Enlargement 13.6
Vasomotor Flushes 10.4
Abdominal-Pelvic Discomfort/Distention/Bloating 5.5
Nausea and Vomiting 2.2
Breast Discomfort 2.1
Visual Symptoms
Blurred vision, lights, floaters, waves, unspecified visual complaints, photophobia, diplopia, scotomata, phosphenes
1.5
Headache 1.3
Abnormal uterine Bleeding, Intermenstrual spotting, menorrhagia 1.3
Includes 495 patients whose reports may have been duplicated in the event totals and could not be distinguished as such. Also, excludes 47 patients who did not report symptom data.
The following adverse events have been reported in fewer than 1% of patients in clinical trails: Acute abdomen, appetite increase, constipation, dermatitis or rash, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, fatigue, hair loss/dry hair, increased urinary frequency/volume, insomnia, light-headedness, nervous tension, vaginal dryness, vertigo, weight gain/loss.
Patients on prolonged clomiphene citrate tablets USP therapy may show elevated serum levels of desmoschol. This is most likely due to a direct interference with cholesterols synthesis. However, the serum sterols in patients receiving the recommended dose of clomiphene citrate tablets USP are not significantly altered. Ovarian cancer has been infrequently reported in patients who have received fertility drugs. Infertility is a primary risk factor for ovarian cancer; however, epidemiology data suggest that prolonged use of clomiphene citrate tablets USP may increase the risk of a borderline or invasive ovarian tumor.
Postmarketing Adverse Events
The following adverse experiences were reported spontaneously with clomiphene citrate tablets USP. The cause and effect relationship of the listed events to the administration of clomiphene citrate tablets USP is not known.
Dermatologic: Acne, allergic reaction, erythema, erythema multiforme, erythema nodosum, hypertrichosis, pruritus.
Central Nervous System: Migraine headache, paresthesia, seizure, stroke, syncope.
Psychiatric: Anxiety irritability, mood changes, psychosis.
Visual Disorders: Abnormal accommodation, cataract, eye pain, macular edema, optic neuritis, photopsia, posterior vitreous detachment, retinal hemorrhage, retinal thrombosis, retinal vascular spasm, temporary loss of vision.
Cardiovascular: Arrhythmia, chest pain, edema, hypertension, palpitation, phlebitis, pulmonary embolism, shortness of breath, tachycardia, thrombophlebitis.
Musculoskeletal: Arthralgia, back pain, myalgia.
Hepatic: Transaminases increased, hepatitis.
Neoplasms: Liver (hepatic hemangiosarcoma, liver cell adenoma, hepatocellular carcinoma); breast (fibrocystic disease, breast carcinoma); endometrium (endometrial carcinoma); nervous system (astrocytoma, pituitary tumor, prolactinoma, neurofibromatosis, glioblastoma multiforme, brain abcess); ovary (luteoma of pregnancy, dermoid cyst of the ovary, ovarian carcinoma); trophoblastic (hydatiform mole, choriocarcinoma); miscellaneous (melanoma, myeloma, perianal cysts, renal cell carcinoma, Hodgkin’s lymphoma, tongue carcinoma, bladder carcinoma); and neoplasms of offspring (neuroectodermal tumor, thyroid tumor, hepatoblastoma, lymphocytic leukemia).
Genitourinary: Endometriosis, ovarian cyst (ovarian enlargement or cysts could, as such, be complicated by adnexal torsion), ovarian hemorrhage, tubal pregnancy, uterine hemorrhage Body as a Whole: Fever, tinnitus, weakness.
Other: Leukocytosis, th roid disorder.
Fetal/Neoastal Anomalies
The following fetal abnormalities have also been reported postmarketing surveillance: delayed development; abnormal bone development including skeletal malformations of the skull, face, nasal passages, jaw, hand, limb (ectromelia including amelia, hemimelia, and phocomelia), foot, and joints; tissue malformations including imperforate anus, tracheoesophageal fistula, diaphragmatic hernia, renal agenesis and dysgenesis, and malformations of the eye and lens (cataract), ear, lung, heart (ventricular septal defect and tetralogy of Fallot), and genitalia; as well as dwarfism, deafness, mental retardation, chromosomal disorders, and neural t.b. defects (including anencephaly).
Grote spuit
Cool Novice
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@dbc01: Het volgende is wederom dankzij Hercules. Hij is een voorstander van opstarten met Nolvadex.
"Nolvadex is minder giftig en heeft minder bijwerkingen. Geen pukkels en geen depri gevoelens. Daarbij heeft nolvadex een positieve impact op je HDL en verlaagt het je LDL.
Gebruik nolvadex als opstarter!
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development"
"Nolvadex is minder giftig en heeft minder bijwerkingen. Geen pukkels en geen depri gevoelens. Daarbij heeft nolvadex een positieve impact op je HDL en verlaagt het je LDL.
Gebruik nolvadex als opstarter!
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development"
Grote spuit
Cool Novice
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Nog meer leesvoer voor de geinteresseerden. Dit keer een oude post van John:
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
References
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (197 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on coïtus hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
References
1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (197 320-7
2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on coïtus hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
Grote spuit
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El Comandante
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Interessant!
Ik gebruik ze ook allebei, alleen probeer ik er zoveel als het kan vanaf te blijven; Nolva alleen bij gyno-probs, Clomid alleen erna. Sinds mijn huidige kuur gebruik ik, op aanraden van iemand, Proviron als voorkómer van gyno.
Ik begon mijn gyno opnieuw te ontwikkelen in een tijd van rust, heel raar dus. Om verdere problemen tegen te gaan bij start van de kuur ben ik meteen met Provi begonnen.
Super werkt het. Provi als voorkomer van gyno.
Ik ben nu flink aan het zetten maar de gyno neemt niet toe!
Ik gebruik ze ook allebei, alleen probeer ik er zoveel als het kan vanaf te blijven; Nolva alleen bij gyno-probs, Clomid alleen erna. Sinds mijn huidige kuur gebruik ik, op aanraden van iemand, Proviron als voorkómer van gyno.
Ik begon mijn gyno opnieuw te ontwikkelen in een tijd van rust, heel raar dus. Om verdere problemen tegen te gaan bij start van de kuur ben ik meteen met Provi begonnen.
Super werkt het. Provi als voorkomer van gyno.
Ik ben nu flink aan het zetten maar de gyno neemt niet toe!
El Comandante
Massive Warrior
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Oh en wat betreft de waslijst voorgekomen bijwerkingen die hierboven staat betreffende Clomid; dat zijn de resultaten van het onderzoek met mensen.
Zulk soort onderzoeksresultaten zien er altijd erg eng uit maar neem maar van mij aan dat de onschuldigste medicijnen ook erg onthutsende onderzoeksrapporten hebben....! Neemt niet weg dat Clomid als medicijn zeker geen 'clean' middel is...
Zulk soort onderzoeksresultaten zien er altijd erg eng uit maar neem maar van mij aan dat de onschuldigste medicijnen ook erg onthutsende onderzoeksrapporten hebben....! Neemt niet weg dat Clomid als medicijn zeker geen 'clean' middel is...
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Dat van die clomid voor vrouwen was een reactie op iemand anders. Was geen argument hoor! (doet er ook verder niet toe)
En verder ben je zelf ook mis, want nolvadex heeft onrechtstreeks (net als clomid) wel een effect op de zaadproductie...
De manier waarop een post-cycle werkt is anders dan je denkt, het gaat via estrogenen, niet direct via je eigen test.
Door estrogenen te blocken zal je meer test produceren, nolvadex kan dit veel beter en werkt dus al aan lagere dosis krachtiger.
Verder..Nolvadex toxisch? Hmmm...Wat dacht je dat clomid is? Nog veel toxischer.
Vraag me echt af hoe jij denkt dat het verschillend is van clomid.
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Clomid is een middel met meer bijwerkingen dan nolvadex. Jij probeert die laatste als giftig en smerig over te doen komen terwijl het juist clomid is wat smerig en giftig en niet effectief is.
Dat enkel clomid als nakuur kan dienen is iets wat bodybuilders altijd hebben gedacht, het is een mythe en zeker niet waar.
Gezien alle bovenstaande ligt voor mij de voorkeur bij nolvadex, vooral omdat de FSH component die clomid heeft bij nolvadex minder is mogelijk zelfs afwezig.
Wel zou het goed zijn hier nog 2 andere stoffen mee te nemen in de discussie namelijk Armidex dat niet alleen een zwak oestrogeen is maar ook de productie van oestrogeen verwminderd. Helaas is het nog al duur en heeft het een korte halfwaarde tijd. Daarnaast hebben we ook nog Cyclofenil wat zowel een zwak oestrogeen is als gondotropine stimulator.
Wel zou het goed zijn hier nog 2 andere stoffen mee te nemen in de discussie namelijk Armidex dat niet alleen een zwak oestrogeen is maar ook de productie van oestrogeen verwminderd. Helaas is het nog al duur en heeft het een korte halfwaarde tijd. Daarnaast hebben we ook nog Cyclofenil wat zowel een zwak oestrogeen is als gondotropine stimulator.
Garret
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HaRdStEeL
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dit is iets wat ik heb van ''lekkerinjevel.nl''
hier staat aldus geschreven, dat clomid ''en'' nolvadex de testosteron produktie weer "opgang" zetten...
grtz..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nakuur: Nolvadex en Clomid
Het gebruik van anabole steroïden zal er toe leiden dat de lichaamseigen productie van testosteron grotendeels of zelfs geheel stil komt te liggen. Dit wordt veroorzaakt door dat het lichaam een overdosis testosteron waarneemt. Erg vervelend als je stopt met kuren omdat je dan helemaal geen testosteron in je lichaam meer hebt. Het gevolg hiervan is spierafbraak. Je kunt dit voorkomen door een goede nakuur te doen.
Hoe zwaarder de kuur, hoe moeilijker het herstel. Dit geldt ook voor de lengte van de kuur: hoe langer de kuur, hoe langer meestal ook het herstel zal duren. Dit heeft ook te maken met het krimpen van de testikels na een lange periode van inactiviteit.
Nolvadex en Clomid zorgen ervoor dat de lichaamseigen testosteronproductie weer op gang komt. Clomid en Nolvadex zijn zogemaamde SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) dat wil zeggen dat ze in sommige weefsels als een zeer zwak oestrogeen reageren en in andere weefsels juist als anti-oestrogeen. Dat wil zeggen dat ze de oestrogeenreceptor blokkeren zodat zeer sterke oestogenen zoals estradiol hun werk niet kunnen doen. Nolvadex en Clomid worden daarom ook wel oestrogeenblokkers genoemd.Verder geven Clomid en Nolvadex een signaal af aan de hersenen dat er weer testosteron geproduceerd dient te worden.
Dosering Clomid en Nolvadex
De dosering verschilt sterk per persoon. Bij Clomid begint men meestal met 100 mg per dag voor een paar weken en bouwt dit af. Voor Nolvadex begint men meestal met 50 mg per dag en bouwt dit tevens af.
Wanneer de nakuur beginnen?
De start van de nakuur wordt bepaald door de AAS met de langste ester. Het AAS-nivo in het bloed moet namelijk ver genoeg gedaald zijn wil een nakuur zin hebben. Bij teveel externe AAS blijft je eigen testosteronproductie namelijk onderdrukt ook al gebruik je de combi Clomid/Nolvadex.
Tijd na de laatste injectie/toediening alvorens de nakuur te beginnen:
Anadrol: 1 dag
Dianabol: 1 dag
Deca: 3 weken
NPP 4 dagen
Tren Prop 4 dagen
Test prop 4 dagen
Winstrol 1 tot 2 dagen
Sustanon 2,5 tot 3 weken
Test Enant 2 weken
Tren Enant 2 weken
Primobolan 10 tot 14 dagen
Boldenone 17 tot 21 dagen
Test Cyp. 14 dagen
hier staat aldus geschreven, dat clomid ''en'' nolvadex de testosteron produktie weer "opgang" zetten...
grtz..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nakuur: Nolvadex en Clomid
Het gebruik van anabole steroïden zal er toe leiden dat de lichaamseigen productie van testosteron grotendeels of zelfs geheel stil komt te liggen. Dit wordt veroorzaakt door dat het lichaam een overdosis testosteron waarneemt. Erg vervelend als je stopt met kuren omdat je dan helemaal geen testosteron in je lichaam meer hebt. Het gevolg hiervan is spierafbraak. Je kunt dit voorkomen door een goede nakuur te doen.
Hoe zwaarder de kuur, hoe moeilijker het herstel. Dit geldt ook voor de lengte van de kuur: hoe langer de kuur, hoe langer meestal ook het herstel zal duren. Dit heeft ook te maken met het krimpen van de testikels na een lange periode van inactiviteit.
Nolvadex en Clomid zorgen ervoor dat de lichaamseigen testosteronproductie weer op gang komt. Clomid en Nolvadex zijn zogemaamde SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) dat wil zeggen dat ze in sommige weefsels als een zeer zwak oestrogeen reageren en in andere weefsels juist als anti-oestrogeen. Dat wil zeggen dat ze de oestrogeenreceptor blokkeren zodat zeer sterke oestogenen zoals estradiol hun werk niet kunnen doen. Nolvadex en Clomid worden daarom ook wel oestrogeenblokkers genoemd.Verder geven Clomid en Nolvadex een signaal af aan de hersenen dat er weer testosteron geproduceerd dient te worden.
Dosering Clomid en Nolvadex
De dosering verschilt sterk per persoon. Bij Clomid begint men meestal met 100 mg per dag voor een paar weken en bouwt dit af. Voor Nolvadex begint men meestal met 50 mg per dag en bouwt dit tevens af.
Wanneer de nakuur beginnen?
De start van de nakuur wordt bepaald door de AAS met de langste ester. Het AAS-nivo in het bloed moet namelijk ver genoeg gedaald zijn wil een nakuur zin hebben. Bij teveel externe AAS blijft je eigen testosteronproductie namelijk onderdrukt ook al gebruik je de combi Clomid/Nolvadex.
Tijd na de laatste injectie/toediening alvorens de nakuur te beginnen:
Anadrol: 1 dag
Dianabol: 1 dag
Deca: 3 weken
NPP 4 dagen
Tren Prop 4 dagen
Test prop 4 dagen
Winstrol 1 tot 2 dagen
Sustanon 2,5 tot 3 weken
Test Enant 2 weken
Tren Enant 2 weken
Primobolan 10 tot 14 dagen
Boldenone 17 tot 21 dagen
Test Cyp. 14 dagen
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