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IGF and cancer..

klaas

Ripped Bodybuilder
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8 mei 2003
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yep igf is leuk spul, maar hier is dan toch de negatieve kant ervan:

Please do not cut and past the below workings, you will find my information to be the best out there. But I do like to reserve the right to distribute it to the boards I see fit. Thanks
TheGAME

In response to high demand, here is the truth about cancer that half the Dr's out there don't even grasp at times.

The big misconception about cancer is its something you get. This is not true, we all live with cancer type cells all the time, but our body has its own control over these cells, and kills them off via apoptosis. The things that cause cancer,don't neccissarily make more cancerous cells all the time, some of the time they damage the cells ability to detect, and kill itself if it becomes cancerous. And because of the way DNA is replicated and the flaws in it, this is what happens with age.

The breif summary:
Your body has specific genes, and receptors that regulate programmed cell death through a method called apoptosis. Apoptosis basically results in the destruction of the mitochondrial membrane, destruction of the cellular DNA and eventually your body digest the dead cell with special enzymes, etc. and the cell is gone comepletely without a trace.

This is what your body does when it detects a faulty cell. In the case of cancer these cells have their fault in that they have lost their ability to control their growth cycle. They just keep dividing, over and over. In a healthy individual these cells are detected either by themselves or the body, and it is signaled to under apoptosis. If this doesnt happen and the cells can keep dividing, eventually this leads to a tumor. When they refer to metastisizing in cancer, they are refering to the point at which the cells that were duplicating, at least some of them have broken off and spread throughout the body so that they can now reattach anywhere and start making more tumors.

How do Growth factors and Selegiline fit into the picture. First of all, neither of these cause cells to become cancerous. One could argue that b/c growth factors cause cell growth and progression though the cycle, the more times a cell duplicates the more chances there is for a mistake and a cancer cell made. However you are duplicating cells all the time eveyr day. So really the increased risk there is extremely low. In addition to that, muscle specific growth factors, have even less of a risk, b/c adult muscle cells can not divide. You will never have bicep cancer unforunantly, although it might be nice to have your muscles grow on there own for a while by mistake, it will never happen.

The risk with IGF and selegiline exist primarily on their ability to preserve cell life by upregulating proteins that actually block your bodies apoptotic factors. This is why selegiline and IGF are neuroprotective drugs. They can protect cells from undergoing apoptosis, which in the case of many neurological diseases, is the cause. For unknown reasons these brain cells start undergoing programmed cell death. They are not cancerous. So these drugs are used to treat the condition.

However if a cell in the body was cancerous, it is conceivable that enough singaling via IGF or selegiline could prevent the body from killing it off. Thus it would be allowed to grow in duplicate. This is why I am going to suggest cycling any type of compound that effects tumor surpressors in the body. Because IGF and Selegiline do not permanently effect the ability of the cell to undergo apoptosis, one would assume that discontinued stimulation would then result in the body being able to successfully kill the cells.

So you may ask then, why do people get cancer/tumors if we have such a great mechanism for defense. The flaw is in our gene replication. When DNA replicates often times it leaves off little peices on the ends. So there is a loss of DNA. But the cell has a special enzyme called telomerase that can actually use an imbeded sequence in the enzyme to fix these ends. But this doesnt happen 100% of the time. So as you get older you are actually losing your DNA due to the clipping off or incomplete ends during replication. The biggest downside here, is that two very important genes are close to the ends of the DNA, one codes for telomerase itself, the very thing trying to reduce DNA loss, and the other codes for the p53 gene which is considered the primary tumor surpressor gene. This is the gene most responsible for a cell to be able to program its own death if it becomes cancerous. Loss of this gene= a major loss in cancer defense for this cell and every cell it makes from there on.

So while IGF/and Selegiline due effect tumor supressor action, I beleive cancer if it is going to occur, will happen with or without them present. However long term use if either of these without cycling, could speed up the process considerably. So, what I recommend is the same for any drug. Take as directed.

The BIG scientific version. (you knew it was coming) Sorry about picture size I know some of them are hard to read, but it was the only way I could get them in here. You can save them and zoom if you like.

Programmed cell death (PCD), or apoptosis, can be triggered by a wide range of stimuli, including cell surface receptors like Fas and FasL. It constitutes a system for the removal of unnecessary, aged, or damaged cells that is regulated by the interplay of proapoptotic and antiapoptotic proteins of the Bcl-2 family. The proapoptotic proteins Bax, Bad, Bid, Bik, and Bim contain an a-helical BH3 death domain that fits the hydrophobic BH3 binding pocket on the antiapoptotic proteins Bcl-2 and Bcl-XL, forming heterodimers that block the survival-promoting activity of Bcl-2 and Bcl-XL. Thus, the relative abundance of proapoptotic and antiapoptotic proteins determines the susceptibility of the cell to programmed death. The proapoptotic proteins act at the surface of the mitochondrial membrane to decrease the mitochondrial trans-membrane potential and promote leakage of cytochrome c. In the presence of dATP cytochrome c complexes with and activates Apaf-1. Activated Apaf-1 binds to downstream caspases, such as procaspase-9, and processes them into proteolytically active forms. This begins a caspase cascade resulting in apoptosis.

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Activation and Inhibition of Apoptosis
Several mechanisms have been identified in mammalian cells for the induction of apoptosis. These mechanisms include factors that lead to perturbation of the mitochondria leading to leakage of cytochrome c or factors that directly activate members of the death receptor family. Fas is a member of the tumor necrosis factor (TNF) receptor superfamily, a family of transmembrane receptors that include neurotrophin receptor (p75NTR), TNF-R1, and a variety of other cell surface receptors. Fas Ligand (Fas L) transmits signals to Fas on a target cell by inducing trimerization of Fas. Activation of Fas causes the recruitment of Fas-associated protein with death domain (FADD) via interactions between the death domain of Fas and FADD and is followed by pro-caspase-8 binding to FADD via interactions between the death effector domains (DED) of FADD and pro-caspase-8 leading to the activation of caspase-8. Activation of caspase-8 leads to the activation of other caspases, in effect beginning a caspase cascade that ultimately leads to apoptosis. Caspase-8 activation can also activate Bid, leading to activation of the apoptotic program. Fas-induced apoptosis can be effectively blocked at several stages by either FLICE-inhibitory protein (FLIP), by Bcl-2, or by the cytokine response modifier A (CrmA). In addition, activation of caspase-3 by caspase-9 can be blocked by inhibitor of apoptosis proteins (IAPs). Moreover, the protein kinase, Akt, can be activated by various growth factors and its activity can be blocked by PTEN. Akt functions to promote cell survival through two distinct pathways. Akt inhibits apoptosis by phosphorylating the Bcl-2 family member Bad, which then interacts with 14-3-3 and dissociates from Bcl-xL allowing for cell survival. Alternatively, Akt activates IKKα that ultimately leads to NFκB activation and cell survival. Proapoptotic Bcl-2 family members, such as Bax and Bak can promote mitochondrial permeability, while Bcl-2 can inhibit their effects. Upon mitochondrial permeability, apoptogenic factors are released from the mitochondrial inter-membrane space and leak into the cytosol. One factor is cytochrome c, which induces the liberation of protease activators (caspases) that ultimately lead to apoptosis through nuclear damage (DNA fragmentation, DNA mutations). In addition, Smac/Diablo is released and can block IAP inhibition of capsase activity. Mitochondrial permeability is also related to the increased generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS), which plays a role in the degradation phase of apoptosis (i.e. plasma membrane alterations).

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You should recognize a few things in this image. PI3K is one of the two pathways in which IGF is known to act, and AKT is the downstreamindirect signaling pathway of IGF as well .

Mitochondria in Apoptosis
Increases in cytosolic Ca2+ levels due to activation of ion channel-linked receptors, such as that for the excitatory amino acid neurotransmitter glutamic acid, can induce permeability transition (PT) of the mitochondrial membrane. PT constitutes the first rate-limiting event of the common pathway of apoptosis. Upon PT, apoptogenic factors leak into the cytoplasm from the mitochondrial intermembrane space. Two such factors, cytochrome c and apoptosis inducing factor (AIF), begin a cascade of proteolytic activity that ultimately leads to nuclear damage (DNA fragmentation, DNA mutations) and cell death. Cytochrome C, a key protein in electron transport, appears to act by forming a multimeric complex with Apaf-1, a protease, which in turn activates procaspase 9, and begins a cascade of activation of downstream caspases. Smac/Diablo is released from the mitochondria and inhibits IAP (inhibitor of apoptosis) from interacting with caspase 9 leading to apoptosis. Bcl-2 and Bcl-X can prevent pore formation and block the release of cytochrome c from the mitochondria and prevent activation of the caspase cascade and apoptosis. PT is also related to the mitochondrial generation of reactive oxygen species which plays a role in the degradation phase of apoptosis (i.e. plasma membrane alterations).

Mitochondrial induced apoptosis is the specific pathway that Selegiline is used to protect against. Selegiline prevents the mitochondrial from releaseing Cytochrome c from the membrane by upregulating Bcl-2 and increasing membrain stability.
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IGF Regulation of Apoptosis
Model of IGF-I Receptor regulation of apoptosis. Ligand binding to IGF-IR activates the tyrosine kinase domain which initiates a set of signaling cascades. This leads to a higher concentration of the anti-apoptotic proteins bcl-2 and bcl-xL a lower level of the apoptotic proteins bax and bcl-xs. IGF-IR signaling also activates phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (P13-K), which in turn activates protein kinase B (PKB/Akt) that also prevent apoptosis. These pathways converge on the inhibition of caspases, especially caspase-3, which is then blocked from performing an apoptosis-initiating cleavage of poly(adenosine diphosphate ribose) polymerase (PARP) and blocked from degrading β-catenin, part of the cadherin cell-adhesion system. Thus, IGF stimulates IGF-IR


TNF is resposnible for inducing apoptosis via signaling at the Fas Ligand, which you can see in the above pathways.

Involvement of the TNF-alpha autocrine-paracrine loop, via NF-kappaB and YY1, in the regulation of tumor cell resistance to Fas-induced apoptosis.

Huerta-Yepez S, Vega M, Garban H, Bonavida B.

Department of Microbiology, Immunology, and Molecular Genetics, Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of California, 10833 Le Conte Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90095-1747, USA; Unidad de Investigacion Medica en Inmunologia e Infectologia, Hospital de Infectologia, CMN "La Raza", IMSS, Mexico.

Many tumors are resistant to Fas ligand (FasL)-induced apoptosis. This study examined the role of tumor-derived TNF-alpha, via an autocrine/paracrine loop, in the regulation of tumor-cell resistance to FasL-induced apoptosis. We have reported that Fas expression and sensitivity to FasL is negatively regulated by the transcription repressor factor Yin Yang 1 (YY1). Thus, we hypothesized that tumor-derived TNF-alpha induces the activation of NF-kappaB and the transcription repressor YY1, both of which negatively regulate Fas expression and sensitivity to FasL-induced apoptosis. This hypothesis was tested in PC-3 prostate cancer cells which synthesize and secrete TNF-alpha and express constitutively active NF-kappaB and YY1. Treatment of PC-3 cells with TNF-alpha (10 units) resulted in increased NF-kappaB and YY1 DNA-binding activity, upregulation of YY1 expression, downregulation of surface and total Fas expression and enhanced resistance of PC-3 to apoptosis induced by the FasL agonist antibody CH-11. In contrast, blocking the binding of secreted TNF-alpha on PC-3 cells with soluble recombinant sTNF-RI resulted in significant inhibition of constitutive NF-kappaB and YY1 DNA-binding activity, downregulation of YY1 expression, upregulation of Fas expression and sensitization of tumor cells to CH-11-induced apoptosis. The regulation of YY1 expression and activity by NF-kappaB was demonstrated by the use of the NF-kappaB inhibitor Bay 11-7085 and by the use of a GFP reporter system whereby deletion of the YY1-tandem binding site in the promoter significantly enhanced GFP expression. The direct role of YY1 expression in the regulation of PC-3 resistance to CH-11-induced apoptosis was shown in cells transfected with siRNA YY1 whereby such cells exhibited upregulation of Fas expression and were sensitized to CH-11-induced apoptosis. These findings demonstrate that the TNF-alpha autocrine-paracrine loop is involved in the constitutive activation of the transcription factors NF-kappaB and YY1 in the tumor cells and this loop leads to inhibition of Fas expression and resistance to FasL-induced apoptosis. Further, these findings identify new targets such as TNF-alpha, NF-kappaB and YY1, whose inhibition can reverse tumor cell resistance to FasL-mediated apoptosis.
 
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conclusie:
What I'm saying is that IGF doesnt cause a cell to become cancerous. The risk lies in that IGF can prevent your body from getting rid of cancerous cells. This risk of these occuring of course increases with age, sun exposure, etc. Basically anything that degrades the DNA faster than normal.

So say you already have a cell in your body that for whatver reason becomes cancerous, IGF and selegiline reduce the ability of that cell being killed off right away. However after discontinued use, IGF no longer has an effect. The problem is, cancer cells replicated uncontrolably, and therefore you risk have more cancer cells to deal with after long term IGF or selegiline usage.

I can't tell you how effective IGF is at blocking the bodies apoptotic signals, or how long you would need to take IGF to significantly increase the risk of a cancer cell lineage to become a problem. The research has not been done.

However, I think that 3-4 weeks in a healthy individual should not increase the risk significntly. If you want to extra safe, avoid carcinogens, the sun, don't smoke/drink, while on IGF. This will reduce the risk of even forming a cancer cell.

from TheGame46
 
Laatst bewerkt:
well, all a cancer cell is by definition is an abnoral cell. I'm sure we all have some, or will at some point. the rate of growth on those cells is what is important

GF/GH all work through hyperplasma, splitting of cells, and increasing growth rates, thus speeding up cell growth in abnormal cells.

People bring up HGh/LR3 all the time, but forget that AAS can have the same effect on cancerus cells.
 
As with just about everything we do in a bodybuilding as well as longevity and anti-aging realms, there isn't a single best answer.

As stated above, anytime we increase the speed with which the body is dividing cells, we have somewhat of an increased chance of those cells having a dna defect and being abnormal (ie the beginning of a tumor). On the flip side to this, use of HGH has some very positive influences on your killer cells and on your immune system in general with regard to tumors, etc. I spent years researching the different studies on HGH with respect to cancer patients (my wife being a cancer survivor) and what you end up is a LOT of controversy on both sides of the discussion.

It is true that elevating your IGF-1 levels makes ALL tissues grow ... for good and bad. It is also true that the tumors and cancers themselves can secrete their own growth factors and don't need an external source to continue to thrive. It is also true that HGH and the growth factors that are a result of its use can protect your body and actually heal a great amount of damage done by our environment.

For all of these reasons above, what you will see by me and many of the other good bros here is the recommendation that you get a scan for any ACTIVE tumors before taking HGH and/or IGF-1. If you haven't got anything that is able to be detected through a reasonable scan, HGH is most likely going to do many positive things for you. HGH WILL NOT CAUSE cancer or tumors .... at the most it will accelerate the growth of the existing tumor. At best, it will battle the tumor and help your body fight off the problem.

It is somewhat an issue that our chosen lifestyle of bodybuilding goes somewhat against the recommendations for longevity. Studies have shown what you do to slow down dna damaged cell growth and extend your life is to eat just above starvation rations .... this slows cell division which in turn slows damaging growth. This starvation lifestyle interestingly enough also promotes higher levels of HGH. The problem with this is you are going to end up looking anorexic in the process. Your lean tissue will be eaten first, and then your fat stores, so you can end up lean .... but certainly not very big.

The approach many of us take is that by keeping all of your hormones at peak level, exercising and feeding the body with good quality food sources, you can also extend lifespan by never allow the body to break down in the first place. This method also seems to have some merit as does the starvation method.

Hope some of this helps. I realize it is just a REALLY long way to say that there isn't a definitive answer to your query. I think everyone before endeavoring to take HGH, Growth Factors, or AAS's needs to think their logic through and make sure they have a plan that works. There are actually many logical paths to take .... the MOST important thing is to actually have a plan to begin with and not blindly trip along .... that is where you end up hearing the horror stories.

It is true that there are many different types of cancer cells, and depending on their nature they are a big or small problem. Some will test testosterone positive, some estrogen positive, some neither. If they are tested and come back negative to these, testosterone or estrogen won't impress them much and cause them to grow at an accelerated rate. If they are positive however, adding supraphysiologic levels of hormones into your system is a VERY unwise thing to do.

The other thing is that just about ALL cells are receptive to growth factors, and that is exactly what HGH, IGF-1, and certain AAS's are raising the levels of. I would certainly be careful if I had cancer. It is true that it depends on the type and nature of the cancer as to what will trigger it to grow faster .... but there are very few cells in the body that aren't suseptable to one or more growth factors. During HGH use we talk mostly about raising IGF-1, but HGH is not limited to raising ONLY that one growth factor ... that is just the one of most interest and most studied. Part of HGH's ability to be as systemically beneficial is that its use is responsible for the increase of other growth factors as well.

In patients with gender specific cancers (males - prostate, etc , females - breast, ovarian, etc), there are two phases to the control part of the treatment. Number one is you keep the hormone levels on the low side of normal down to non-existant in some cases, the other is you intentially keep growth factor levels low. That is the ticket to maximum life expectancy.

I would at the very least advise a cancer patient to be militantly watched before, during, and after either HGH or AAS cycles .... and most likely would advise for certain types of cancers that their use be completely avoided.

Dus net zo gevaarlijk als de rest imo.
 
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"People keep asking me the question if what I'm doing is really healthy. Then I answer them they must stop asking stupid questions. I do not train to be healthy, I train to become the best bodybuilder"
Marcus Ruhl
 
Niet te vergeten dat je igf-1 neemt voor 4 weken en dan tijdje niet...
Terwijl je met een lange aas kuur zo 12 weken hoge androgenen in je lichaam hebt...


Als je IGF-1 injecteert op 100 MCG dag zit je ongeveer op 6-8 x je normale productie
Met 1 gram test per week zit je op 20 X je normale productie

Dat zal ook wel uitmaken
 
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  • #7
klopt..idaad..is allemaal erg relatief.

maar vond die figuurtjes er wel leuk uitzien met al die kleurtjes
 
Zag dat jij er ook zat inderdaad...mgf forum..
 
Goede info die ik overigens al kon maar nu mooi overzichtelijk gepost.

Conclusie blijft zoals altijd.....risico loop je en de een wordt nou eenmaal ouder dan de ander.....belangrijkste is dat als je dood gaat dat je terug kan kijken op een leven zoals JIJ dat wou.....dan heb je het goed gedaan ongeacht of je 50 of 80 bent.
 
Testo zei:
Goede info die ik overigens al kon maar nu mooi overzichtelijk gepost.

Conclusie blijft zoals altijd.....risico loop je en de een wordt nou eenmaal ouder dan de ander.....belangrijkste is dat als je dood gaat dat je terug kan kijken op een leven zoals JIJ dat wou.....dan heb je het goed gedaan ongeacht of je 50 of 80 bent.

idd, ik zeg altijd maar: liever groot gestorven als klein geleefd!
 
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