MuscleMeat

Naar aanleiding van het korte kuur log

RichardV

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Lid sinds
9 dec 2002
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Heren,

naar aanleiding van het korte kuren log zat ik te denken over het e.e.a.
Voordelen korte kuur:
Lichaam minder lang onderdrukt
Naar mijn idee, vaker kunnen kuren per jaar (je herstel zal immers ook minder tijd bedragen)

Nadelen:
Je moet veel as in je fl**ker stouwen:D

Iemand nog meer aanvullingen?
En welke middelen zouden juist wel en welke middelen juist niet geschikt zijn?
 
Ik heb het een en ander zitten lezen.

Voordelen:
  • Lichaam minder lang onderdrukt.
  • Minder last van sides. Minder lange bloodstelling aan hoge bloeddruk, slechte cholesterol waardes, minder kans op acne en dergelijke omdat die komen meestal na een X aantal weken
  • Minder last van krimpende balletjes, want dat gebeurd meestal ook vooral na een aantal weken plat liggen van je productie (week 4 +-)
  • Minder lange "off" periode. (mentaal wel fijn)
  • Voor sommigen misschien wel NETTO meer gains bij 3x 4 weken ipv 1x 12 weken.
Nadelen:
  • Iets hogere doseringen nodig, maar kan ook met normale doseringen (niet gelijk Maus-mode :D)
  • Misschien maken sommigen meer kwaliteit gains in de latere weken.
  • Je moet het denk ik wel 2-3 x achter elkaar doen voor het gewenste resultaat voor korte kuren.
Leesvoer: (hele goede thread!)
Short heavy cyles explained- PB theory - Anabolic Steroids - Steroid.com / Anabolic Review Forums
 
WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

"In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"
You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off
Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.
4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year.

WHY DO THEM

#1.
If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

#2.
Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.
Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.
( details taken from article in Medscape)

Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and Tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

Total cholesterol 181...not bad.
ldl 160...not very good
hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time
Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.
Triglycerides 50...good.

Here is my "baseline" without gear

Chol 152...great
ldl 106...great
hdl 45-48...good
tri 50..good
chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

.As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use.
In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)


#3.
Do them to decrease [Link niet meer beschikbaar] stress.
Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the [Link niet meer beschikbaar] but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the [Link niet meer beschikbaar] and the frequent "off" times allows the [Link niet meer beschikbaar] to regenerate very well.
Generally a healthy [Link niet meer beschikbaar] can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause [Link niet meer beschikbaar] damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

#4.
Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids.

#5.
Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.
It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.
* There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

#6.
Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an [Link niet meer beschikbaar] inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic)


#7.
Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

#8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.
Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

#9.
Do them if you are tired of walking around with high [Link niet meer beschikbaar] levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an [Link niet meer beschikbaar] inhibitor. High [Link niet meer beschikbaar] levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

You certainly can use [Link niet meer beschikbaar] inhibitors if you like if you want to keep [Link niet meer beschikbaar] levels down and experience very little water retention.


WHY NOT TO DO THEM

Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.
Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.


WHAT TO EXPECT

If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A SHITTY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.


GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.
You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

BEST Gear

d-bol
test prop Tren anadrol

BEST stacks.

Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone, in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

Test prop/tren
Test prop/tren/winny
Test prop/anadrol
Test prop/d-bol


STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

I like Tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO Tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth).

Some guys think I am nuts for recommending Tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with Tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as Tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an [Link niet meer beschikbaar] inhibitor....and shit test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than Tren.

The only issue with Tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


Novice... TREN/D-BOL.... Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.
Two days after last Tren do [Link niet meer beschikbaar] at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.
Have [Link niet meer beschikbaar] or [Link niet meer beschikbaar] on hand for [Link niet meer beschikbaar] protection.

More advanced...200 of Tren on day one as a front load to get Tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. nolva on hand.

more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An [Link niet meer beschikbaar] inhibitor might be needed.

MEGA STACK... ADVANCED
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and Tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the [Link niet meer beschikbaar] on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

SINGLE STEROIDS

D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the [Link niet meer beschikbaar].
D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains.

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.



OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.
400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

* Best to use Tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of [Link niet meer beschikbaar]/day if using d-bol and test)

* After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start [Link niet meer beschikbaar] and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.



BLOOD LIPIDS

You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.


Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your shitty hdl level.
NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the [Link niet meer beschikbaar] so never use it with acutane which is hard on the [Link niet meer beschikbaar]. You really should have [Link niet meer beschikbaar] panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

ENTER POLICOSANOL

DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not [Link niet meer beschikbaar] toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.
Do a search at Welcome to Medscape for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.


I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially [Link niet meer beschikbaar] panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.
 
  • Topic Starter Topic Starter
  • #5
Juist om niet alle andere sites af te struinen graag hier uw reacties ;)

Zit er bijvoorbeeld aan te denken (aan gebruikelijkere doseringen)
Bijvoorbeeld test e 2x per week 500 mg
Tren 2x per week 500 mg
Dan week of 4-5 en dan nakuur (deze dan net zolang als bij een normale kuur of kan deze dan ook korter?)
 
RichardV zei:
Juist om niet alle andere sites af te struinen graag hier uw reacties ;)

Zit er bijvoorbeeld aan te denken (aan gebruikelijkere doseringen)
Bijvoorbeeld test e 2x per week 500 mg
trenbolone 2x per week 500 mg
Dan week of 4-5 en dan nakuur (deze dan net zolang als bij een normale kuur of kan deze dan ook korter?)
Alsnog zou ik dan laatste 2 weken korte esters pakken, anders ben je als nog 6 weken bezig.

Met 2 weken lange esters gevolgd door 2 weken korte esters, kan je direct erna nakuren.
Verder moet je wel minimaal een frontload zetten om gelijk op het gewenste niveau te komen
 
  • Topic Starter Topic Starter
  • #7
Hmm frontload van een week?
Bijvoorbeeld 500 mg 4x per week?

Let op dit zou mijn 1e kuur worden he:)
En nakuur dan wel volledig?
 
RichardV zei:
Hmm frontload van een week?
Bijvoorbeeld 500 mg 4x per week?

Let op dit zou mijn 1e kuur worden he:)
En nakuur dan wel volledig?
Ideetje:

Dag 1: 1000 MG Test E met 800 MG Tren E
Dag 4: 500 MG Test E met 400 MG Tren E
Dag 7: 500 MG Test E met 400 MG Tren E
Dag 10: 500 MG Test E met 400 MG Tren E
Dag 13: 500 MG Test E met 400 MG Tren E
Dag 16: 500 MG Test E met 400 MG Tren E

Dag 19-32 100 MG Test prop met 75 MG Tren Ace per dag of 200 MG prop en 150 tren ace EOD

Dag 34 Start PCT

Zo zit je volgens mij niet in echte mega doseringen.
Week 1 zit je op 2 Gram Test met 1600 MG Tren E (Komt wel vaker voor met frontloaden)
Week 2 zit je op iets meer dan 1 gram test met iets van 800 MG Tren E.

Verder is dat primen van het lichaam met je dieet wel een must volgens mij, voor maximaal resultaat.
 
  • Topic Starter Topic Starter
  • #9
Wat bedoel je met Primen?
 
The prime is a very valuable tool to have for any cycle-
This process creates a very anabolic environment so muscle tissue can grow at a fast rate when you start a cycle, there are plenty of ways this process can be done, When the prime is done correctly you will not believe how quickly the muscle gains come on straight from the start of any cycle,

You simply diet down slowly and lose fat, just like you do before a comp, alot of BB's who have done comps will understand this process and how much can be obtained at this special stage, Dorain was a big believer in this process and would be straight back into the gym after big shows taking advantage of this valuable stage.

I have tried many different ways with my own body to find out which one suits me better and i prefer to cycle my carbs 3 low 1 high, this will create a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow, the muscle receptors get highly excitable and upgrade and able to accept more glucose and because glucose levels are not full in the muscle the result is more deposited into the muscle when you start the cycle and increase the food,this environment builds muscle tissue very quickly, if this is done correctly and timed right when you start the cycle, growth is amazing, i feel priming is a must when considering any cycle but it does work and is ideal towards short cycling.

With the carb prime rotation process i follow 3 days low carbs(40% less than normal) 1 day high (15% higher than normal) You must have a basic stable diet which you have ran for afew wks before doing such a process, i feel this isn't to harsh on your muscle tissue and the 1 high carb day offsets any potential metabolic slowdown, which is extremely usefull in laying down metabolic boosting muscle or at least saving it. if this process is not done right you will lose muscle tissue so carefull planning is needed to hold on to all the muscle gains and only fat loss and putting your body into the correct environment is achieved, when any kind of priming is done an increase in protein/aminos acids will help to maintain the current muscle tissue, also GH would benefit in helping this process, the high carb/low carb rotational prime diet also upgrades the receptors cites on muscle tissue for insulin, this changes the body's ability to store carbs as glycogen in muscle tissue rather than fat. The priming works far better if its done over a longer period of time, your after burning unwanted body fat and maintaining muscle tissue and a slow reduction in carbs towards the cycle start, will create an ideal environment for huge muscle gains. Also the last 5 days to the run up to the start of the cycle should be low carbs (40%).

Another way of priming is the slow reduction of carbs within your diet over 6-8 weeks or longer, make sure protein is increased in any of the priming methods so muscle loss is stopped or at least kept to a minimum, when ever the prime is done it creates an environment for muscle tissue to grow very quickly so when you do start your cycle all this coupled with a AAS and all the other compounds you use and the increase in food intake makes this an ideal environment for muscle tissue to grow and huge tissue gains are experienced.

The idea is to create an environment,and you simple take advantage of the condition and use it to spring board into a cycle, there are certain things what must be in place so you dont receive muscle tissue loss before the cycle but when its done correctly the gains are amazing, its a excellent tool to have on any cycle.I feel alot of newbies think that AAS is the whole key to building the perfect body but its not, its just one tool for the job there are many other things what come into play to help the process of building muscle and priming is one of them.
 
Wanneer je alleen met korte esters gaat werken kom je wel wat tekort.
Je kan juist met lange esters in het begin werken.
Bovendien word het wel erg duur om alleen korte esters te gebruiken

Er zijn meer methodes, niet alleen degene die ik zal toepassen.

Lees met zn allen eens wat meer op de US fora.
Deze jongens zijn imo een stuk verder.

Hier schrikken mensen zich al dood wanneer ze lezen dat Testo 2250mg sust ew injecteerd.
Laat staan mijn kuur.

@Ikke
kijk uit dat je niet telaag gaat met je doseringen zoals je die hier voorsteld.
Dan kon het nog wel eens tegen gaan vallen na 30 dagen.
Ik geloof dat jij ook al een behoorlijke cycle-history hebt??
 
BigMaus zei:
@Ikke
kijk uit dat je niet telaag gaat met je doseringen zoals je die hier voorsteld.
Dan kon het nog wel eens tegen gaan vallen na 30 dagen.
Ik geloof dat jij ook al een behoorlijke cycle-history hebt??
Was ook meer een ideetje voor anderen niet voor mij, met iets minder hogere doseringen.
Ik ben zelf ook meer voor het shock-effect :D
 
Zie ik hier een nieuwe trend ontstaan:D
 
lijkt mij dat het ook aan gewenning ligt, als je alleen op de manier zal kuren en na 10 kuren opeens een lange pakt zal je lichaam hier weer van ''schrikken'' en mischien wel heel goed op een lange kuur reageren.
en andersom ook als je alleen maar lange kuren met normale doseringen hebt gedaan en dan opeens op zon manier een kuur neemt zal je ook wel goed reageren.
of zie ik dit helemaal verkeerd?
zou het ook wel een keer willen proberen als big maus er tevreden over is.
 
Maar ff zonder gekheid.Als je je er een beetje in verdiept klinkt het toch verdomd interesant zeker op het gebied van onderdrukking en herstel.
Ik heb een gevoel dat een hoop van ons hier de komende tijd veel gaat lezen over deze vorm van kuren waaronder ikzelf.
Tis zeker de moeite waard om eens te proberen en dan zelf te kunnen oordelen over de voordelen of nadelen.(wel in gepaste dosering dan):D
 
IKKE zei:
Alsnog zou ik dan laatste 2 weken korte esters pakken, anders ben je als nog 6 weken bezig.

Met 2 weken lange esters gevolgd door 2 weken korte esters, kan je direct erna nakuren.
Verder moet je wel minimaal een frontload zetten om gelijk op het gewenste niveau te komen

zou het dan het beste zijn om met de zelfde AAs verder te gaan, bijvoorbeeld eerste 2 weken tren e en test e pakken en daarna met prop en acetate verder gaan? of zou je ook bijvoorbeeld 2 weken boldenon en tren e en dan met prop en winny verder?
 
maartenonnink zei:
zou het dan het beste zijn om met de zelfde AAs verder te gaan, bijvoorbeeld eerste 2 weken trenbolone e en test e pakken en daarna met prop en acetate verder gaan? of zou je ook bijvoorbeeld 2 weken boldenon en trenbolone e en dan met prop en winny verder?

Kan ook.
 
Voordat je een hele zware kuur in elkaar zet zou je die eigenlijk eens door een kenner op dat gebied (niet ik) moeten doorspreken.
Het is afhankelijk van je stats, kuurverleden, en de aas waar je doorgaans erg goed op gaat.
 
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