konijn1984
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Dianabol help a bro out...
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konijn1984 zei:
Dat kun je niet zeggen...ik ben bijna klaar met mn dbol only kuur en ik zie er niet uit als n ballon, ik heb er wel meer als 8kg mee gewonnen.Dit is natuurlijk gedeelte vocht. Maar ieder lichaam is anders...stel dat jij gevoelig bent voor oestrogenen dan kun je aardig opblazen door n snel aromatiserend middel als dbol.
Ik adviseer je om eerst wat meer info te zoeken voor je met je kuur begint....zoek info over anti-oestro's etc. dat ga je wel nodig hebben.
Suc6
D-bol only is geen kuur, je zult het altijd moeten stacken met een ander steroid voor een goed effect, D-bol houd zoals T al zegt veel vocht vast en is verrekte slecht voor je lever, de gewonnen KILO's (let wel ik spreek over gewonnen kilo's en niet over gewonnen spiermassa) zullen dan ook na je (kuur) weer als sneeuw voor de zon verdwijnen.
Mijn advies is lees nog wat, en spaar zonodig nog wat en zet een goede kuur in elkaar want het blijven tenslotte toch medicijnen die je in je lichaam gaat stoppen, en als je die beslissing dan toch hebt genomen kun je het maar beter op de beste manier doen en dat is niet met alleen maar een paar pilletjes D-bol!!
Veel wijsheid toegewenst.
PS ga je toch voor die D-bol only verspreid ze dan over de dag en ik zou gelijk de maximale dosis nemen (6a7 pillen van 5mg over de dag verdeeld) vanaf dag 1, en na 5 weken rustig afbouwen.
Groetjes.
Mijn advies is lees nog wat, en spaar zonodig nog wat en zet een goede kuur in elkaar want het blijven tenslotte toch medicijnen die je in je lichaam gaat stoppen, en als je die beslissing dan toch hebt genomen kun je het maar beter op de beste manier doen en dat is niet met alleen maar een paar pilletjes D-bol!!
Veel wijsheid toegewenst.
PS ga je toch voor die D-bol only verspreid ze dan over de dag en ik zou gelijk de maximale dosis nemen (6a7 pillen van 5mg over de dag verdeeld) vanaf dag 1, en na 5 weken rustig afbouwen.
Groetjes.
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B.B.Junkie
Dutch Bodybuilder
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Cel zei:
BULLSHIT!!
Waarom zou d-boll alleen geen goede a.s. zijn, heb je weleens gekeken hoe groot Arnold ervan is geworden? Vooral voor een eerste kuur is d-boll gewoon goed. Mocht je ergens last van krijgen dan stop je gewoon en is het zo weer uit je bloed, dat kan met een inject nog wel even duren.
Met de dosering die jij aanraad zal je zeker een vochtprop kunnen worden en naderhand dus ook weer veel (vocht) inleveren.
Beter gewoon beginnen met een lagere dosering 20-25 mg.
Over hoe te gebruiken zijn wel meerdere meningen. Als je het verspreid over de dag zal je meer massa winnen voornamelijk vocht. Er zal ook meer cortisol in je systeem blijven zitten wat zijn werk niet kan doen en wanneer je dan stopt zal dit ook weer een deel van je massa opeisen. Doordat de receptoren weer vrij komen.
Ik denk dat je beter 1 of 2 doseringen kunt nemen. Danwel voor de training of gewoon 1 in de morgen. Op een lagere dosering zul je waarschijnlijk wel wat langer moeten doorgaan dan 7 weken voor een mooi resultaat, maar ik denk dat dit op een lage dosering voor je lever niet veel uitmaakt en je uiteindelijke massa makkelijker te behouden blijft.
B.B.Junkie
Dutch Bodybuilder
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The Use of Dianabol as a Supplement
Artikel door Bransholme (MuscleTalk)
This article was originally intended to be a history of the anabolic steroid dianabol and it's usage in bodybuilding, but there is little real evidence of how it was used in previous decades. However, in the course of research, I have come to the conclusion that current use of dianabol as a supplement is not as efficient as it could be. Most of the modern thoughts on dianabol use reflect around myths and irrelevant scientific studies; this article attempts to explain new ways of thinking on dianabol usage using scientific evidence and people's experiences.
Dianabol (or dbol as it's commonly called) is one of the most commonly used oral steroids. Its chemical name is methanedienone or methandrostenolone and there are many different pharmaceutical and generic varieties including Anabol and Naposim. In this article we look at lower dose usage of dianabol as a supplement, as opposed to using pro-hormones or pro-steroids.
Liver Toxicity of Dianabol
The 17 alpha-alkylated properties of methanedienone do make it liver toxic, but this, I believe, is overstated as most of the evidence of its toxicity comes from studies on individuals and not from studies on large groups of dianabol-using bodybuilders. One study on rats (1) showed that regardless of dose or time of administration, dianabol produces changes in enzymatic activity, which leads to hypertrophy of hepatocytes; which basically shows that dianabol is toxic to the liver. But in another study (2) Nerobol (Russian Dianabol) was found to favour a rapid normalisation of functional and metabolic disorders of the liver, which contradicts the earlier evidence. This shows that the whole idea of dianabol being dangerous is in no way as bad as some would make out.
Benefits of Dianabol Use
Dianabol has been shown to increase anaerobic glycolysis (3), which increases lactic acid build up in the body. This is beneficial because lactic acid is used by the muscles to form glycogen, which in turn provides energy in anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid is also a key chemical in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, which means you are less likely to get fat while using dianabol.
A study on osteoporosis (4) showed that at a dosage of just 2.5mg per day for 9 months dianabol was more effective than calcium supplementation in reducing osteoporotic activity, it was also shown to increase muscle mass more effectively. Another study on osteoporosis (5) which lasted 24 months, showed just how dianabol works on osteoporosis; dianabol increased total body calcium, and also total body potassium. This may not mean much to you as a bodybuilder, but the actions of calcium are very important to bodybuilders, as it transports large numbers of amino acids and also creatine and these two things are vital in muscle growth. Potassium is also very important, as it assists in muscle contractions, transmitting nerve signals, and insulin release; so it is also a very anabolic substance.
One very interesting study (6), although not significant in bodybuilding terms, showed that dianabol increases the sensitivity of laryngeal tumour cells to radiotherapy, and concluded 'recommending this hormone to be used during radiotherapy of patients with the laryngeal cancer'.
How to Cycle Dianabol
To create a cycle for dianabol that is based around using it more as a supplement than a steroid, we first need to look at the current trend for cycling dianabol and analyse what is wrong with it. An average cycle of Dianabol is usually structured as 25-40mg split throughout each day for 4-6 weeks, either alone or stacked with other steroids.
Firstly a dose of 25mg or more commonly causes water retention. It is well known that dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and most of the water retention is usually attributed to a build up of excess estrogen. However, it is my belief that initially water retention is caused by the body holding on to water due to the effects of dianabol on the body's mineral balance, in particular the potassium/sodium balance. This coupled with the fact that dianabol cause estrogenic side effects, leads to a lot of water build-up, and as there is little we can do about the change in the bodies mineral balance, the only other thing we can do is try to reduce aromatisation, usually with Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or other anti-estrogens. This is not the only method though, by reducing the dose, less of the drug will aromatise, which leads to less estrogen and more importantly less water retention. Reducing the drug during a cycle would lead to estrogen levels dropping slowly, so we should start the cycle with a lower dose of 10-20mg each day.
Splitting the dosage when you are using a low dose is virtually pointless, as you will get a much smaller peak of the drug. So in this case it is best to take it in a single dose in the morning (preferably with grapefruit juice). Although this will not prevent suppression of natural testosterone, it may lessen it to a certain degree, as your body will still have lengthy periods later in the day when there is little testosterone circulating, and so it may still produce some.
Now if we look at cycle duration, 4-6 weeks seems too short to have any real effect at a low dose, but how can we use dianabol for longer without placing more risk on our liver? The solution is actually quite simple; by taking weekends off from the drug we will give our livers a break from processing the drug. Due to the short half-life any active substances will be out of our system within 24 hours of your last dose, now this may seem like it will cost you gains, but in actual fact it will cost you little or no losses in the long run as even though there is no active drug in the body the effects are still present i.e. extra intramuscular water, and a more anabolic mineral balance. These effects usually taper off over several days. This method will not however, help your natural testosterone to return from its inhibited state, as this process can take considerably longer. If we take weekends off and use a lower dose, we should in theory be able to use dianabol for 10 weeks with no problems. A simple bit of mathematics can show this point best:
• 6 weeks @25mg each day = 1050mg of Dianabol in total
• 10 weeks with weekends off @15mg each day = 750mg of Dianabol in total
So as you can see, by using this system your liver will actually process less dianabol than in a conventional cycle, add this to the fact that you can make gains for 10 weeks instead of 6, and with fewer side effects, and you get a very solid cycle.
Summary
This Cycle Theory can be applied in many different situations, for instance a beginner could use the dianabol on it's own for 10 weeks and gain very well. A more experienced steroid user could use this alongside an injectable cycle for very good gains too, getting the benefit of the initial quick gains of the Dianabol, with the slower but stronger gains of an injectable.
This cycle may seem to go against many of the current trends of dianabol use, but I believe that by using dianabol as a supplement to good training and nutrition you can make very good gains.
References
• Effects of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity. Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov'eva GI, Stoianova VG.
• An experimental study of the hepatoprotective properties of phytoecdysteroids and Nerobol in carbon tetrachloride induce liver lesions. Syrov VN, Khushbaktova ZA, Nabiev AN.
• Effects of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells. Serakovskii S, Mats'koviak Iu.
• Calcium, vitamin D and anabolic steroid treatment of aged bones: double-blind placebo-controlled long-term clinical trial. Inkovaara J, Gothoni G, Halttula R, Heikinheimo R, Tokola O.
• Changes in body composition following therapy of osteoporosis with methandrostenolone. Mann V, Benko AB, Kocsar LT.
• Radiomodifying effect of methandrostenolone on laryngeal cancer cells. Bordiushkov IuN, Kucherova TI, Kisliakova ND, Vagner VP, Zubkova TV.
Warning! Articles related to the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs are for information purposes only and are the sole expressions of the individual authors opinion. We do not promote the use of these substances and the information contained within this publication is not intended to persuade or encourage the use or possession of illegal substances. These substances should be used only under the advice and supervision of a qualified, licensed physician.
Artikel door Bransholme (MuscleTalk)
This article was originally intended to be a history of the anabolic steroid dianabol and it's usage in bodybuilding, but there is little real evidence of how it was used in previous decades. However, in the course of research, I have come to the conclusion that current use of dianabol as a supplement is not as efficient as it could be. Most of the modern thoughts on dianabol use reflect around myths and irrelevant scientific studies; this article attempts to explain new ways of thinking on dianabol usage using scientific evidence and people's experiences.
Dianabol (or dbol as it's commonly called) is one of the most commonly used oral steroids. Its chemical name is methanedienone or methandrostenolone and there are many different pharmaceutical and generic varieties including Anabol and Naposim. In this article we look at lower dose usage of dianabol as a supplement, as opposed to using pro-hormones or pro-steroids.
Liver Toxicity of Dianabol
The 17 alpha-alkylated properties of methanedienone do make it liver toxic, but this, I believe, is overstated as most of the evidence of its toxicity comes from studies on individuals and not from studies on large groups of dianabol-using bodybuilders. One study on rats (1) showed that regardless of dose or time of administration, dianabol produces changes in enzymatic activity, which leads to hypertrophy of hepatocytes; which basically shows that dianabol is toxic to the liver. But in another study (2) Nerobol (Russian Dianabol) was found to favour a rapid normalisation of functional and metabolic disorders of the liver, which contradicts the earlier evidence. This shows that the whole idea of dianabol being dangerous is in no way as bad as some would make out.
Benefits of Dianabol Use
Dianabol has been shown to increase anaerobic glycolysis (3), which increases lactic acid build up in the body. This is beneficial because lactic acid is used by the muscles to form glycogen, which in turn provides energy in anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid is also a key chemical in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, which means you are less likely to get fat while using dianabol.
A study on osteoporosis (4) showed that at a dosage of just 2.5mg per day for 9 months dianabol was more effective than calcium supplementation in reducing osteoporotic activity, it was also shown to increase muscle mass more effectively. Another study on osteoporosis (5) which lasted 24 months, showed just how dianabol works on osteoporosis; dianabol increased total body calcium, and also total body potassium. This may not mean much to you as a bodybuilder, but the actions of calcium are very important to bodybuilders, as it transports large numbers of amino acids and also creatine and these two things are vital in muscle growth. Potassium is also very important, as it assists in muscle contractions, transmitting nerve signals, and insulin release; so it is also a very anabolic substance.
One very interesting study (6), although not significant in bodybuilding terms, showed that dianabol increases the sensitivity of laryngeal tumour cells to radiotherapy, and concluded 'recommending this hormone to be used during radiotherapy of patients with the laryngeal cancer'.
How to Cycle Dianabol
To create a cycle for dianabol that is based around using it more as a supplement than a steroid, we first need to look at the current trend for cycling dianabol and analyse what is wrong with it. An average cycle of Dianabol is usually structured as 25-40mg split throughout each day for 4-6 weeks, either alone or stacked with other steroids.
Firstly a dose of 25mg or more commonly causes water retention. It is well known that dianabol does aromatise quite easily, and most of the water retention is usually attributed to a build up of excess estrogen. However, it is my belief that initially water retention is caused by the body holding on to water due to the effects of dianabol on the body's mineral balance, in particular the potassium/sodium balance. This coupled with the fact that dianabol cause estrogenic side effects, leads to a lot of water build-up, and as there is little we can do about the change in the bodies mineral balance, the only other thing we can do is try to reduce aromatisation, usually with Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or other anti-estrogens. This is not the only method though, by reducing the dose, less of the drug will aromatise, which leads to less estrogen and more importantly less water retention. Reducing the drug during a cycle would lead to estrogen levels dropping slowly, so we should start the cycle with a lower dose of 10-20mg each day.
Splitting the dosage when you are using a low dose is virtually pointless, as you will get a much smaller peak of the drug. So in this case it is best to take it in a single dose in the morning (preferably with grapefruit juice). Although this will not prevent suppression of natural testosterone, it may lessen it to a certain degree, as your body will still have lengthy periods later in the day when there is little testosterone circulating, and so it may still produce some.
Now if we look at cycle duration, 4-6 weeks seems too short to have any real effect at a low dose, but how can we use dianabol for longer without placing more risk on our liver? The solution is actually quite simple; by taking weekends off from the drug we will give our livers a break from processing the drug. Due to the short half-life any active substances will be out of our system within 24 hours of your last dose, now this may seem like it will cost you gains, but in actual fact it will cost you little or no losses in the long run as even though there is no active drug in the body the effects are still present i.e. extra intramuscular water, and a more anabolic mineral balance. These effects usually taper off over several days. This method will not however, help your natural testosterone to return from its inhibited state, as this process can take considerably longer. If we take weekends off and use a lower dose, we should in theory be able to use dianabol for 10 weeks with no problems. A simple bit of mathematics can show this point best:
• 6 weeks @25mg each day = 1050mg of Dianabol in total
• 10 weeks with weekends off @15mg each day = 750mg of Dianabol in total
So as you can see, by using this system your liver will actually process less dianabol than in a conventional cycle, add this to the fact that you can make gains for 10 weeks instead of 6, and with fewer side effects, and you get a very solid cycle.
Summary
This Cycle Theory can be applied in many different situations, for instance a beginner could use the dianabol on it's own for 10 weeks and gain very well. A more experienced steroid user could use this alongside an injectable cycle for very good gains too, getting the benefit of the initial quick gains of the Dianabol, with the slower but stronger gains of an injectable.
This cycle may seem to go against many of the current trends of dianabol use, but I believe that by using dianabol as a supplement to good training and nutrition you can make very good gains.
References
• Effects of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity. Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov'eva GI, Stoianova VG.
• An experimental study of the hepatoprotective properties of phytoecdysteroids and Nerobol in carbon tetrachloride induce liver lesions. Syrov VN, Khushbaktova ZA, Nabiev AN.
• Effects of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells. Serakovskii S, Mats'koviak Iu.
• Calcium, vitamin D and anabolic steroid treatment of aged bones: double-blind placebo-controlled long-term clinical trial. Inkovaara J, Gothoni G, Halttula R, Heikinheimo R, Tokola O.
• Changes in body composition following therapy of osteoporosis with methandrostenolone. Mann V, Benko AB, Kocsar LT.
• Radiomodifying effect of methandrostenolone on laryngeal cancer cells. Bordiushkov IuN, Kucherova TI, Kisliakova ND, Vagner VP, Zubkova TV.
Warning! Articles related to the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs are for information purposes only and are the sole expressions of the individual authors opinion. We do not promote the use of these substances and the information contained within this publication is not intended to persuade or encourage the use or possession of illegal substances. These substances should be used only under the advice and supervision of a qualified, licensed physician.
B.B.Junkie
Dutch Bodybuilder
- Lid sinds
- 21 jun 2003
- Berichten
- 612
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- 1
En nog wat info die ik van een ander forum gejat heb over waarmee je d-boll en andere orale a.s. het beste kunt nemen.
We are talking about Grapefruit Juice Only. Not Grape Juice. Not Orange Juice. Only Only Only Grapefruit Juice
Can grapefruit juice influence ethinylestradiol bioavailability?
Weber A, Jager R, Borner A, Klinger G, Vollanth R, Matthey K, Balogh A.
Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Friedrich Schiller University of Jena, Germany.
The effects of grapefruit juice on the bioavailability of 17 alpha-ethinylestradiol (EE2) after a single oral administration of 50 micrograms EE2 have been investigated. The pharmacokinetics of EE2 were studied in an open, randomized, cross-over study in which 13 healthy volunteers were administered the drug with herbal tea or grapefruit juice (naringin, 887 mg/ml). In contrast to herbal tea, grapefruit juice increased the peak plasma concentration (Cmax) significantly to 137% (mean; range 64% to 214%, p = 0.0088) and increased the area under plasma concentration-time curve from 0 to 8 hours (AUC0-8) to 128% (mean; range 81% to 180%, p = 0.0186). This study shows that grapefruit juice increases the bioavailable amount of EE2. A possible explanation may be that grapefruit juice inhibits the metabolic degradation of EE2. Whether the increased bioavailability of EE2 following grapefruit juice administration is of clinical importance should be investigated in long-term studies.
Publication Types:
Clinical trial
Randomized controlled trial
PMID: 8631189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------
[/b]side note: also be aware that this is a study a 17a hormone, but not a test on AS.[/b]
also, if you are taking 40mg dbol with grapefruit, im unsure if how much you should adjust the dose lower.
also read that over time your body keeps increasing its ability to absorb drugs over time,so after one week of Grapefruit juice with AS your body will be able to absorb more AS in week 2 than in week 1 when drinking Grapefruit juice concurrently.
Increasing effectiveness with grapefruit juice may increase toxicity. Get your liver supps in order.
Europe is the leader in doctors prescribing natural health remedies. The doctors there instruct patients to take GF juice with their medications to lower dosages and costs for patients. This applies to most meds taken orally.
Please read all of the studies I posted below. There some drug interactions to be aware of and also information for and against the use of grapefruit juice.
Currently I am searching for a link to a site that shows a bit more information on taking grapefruitjuice with medications besides the generic "take one glass of grapefruit juice".
Some hospitals have taken grapefruit juice off the list of possible drinks for patients to avoid problems with medication over dosing with medication prescribed by their doctors.
In a randomized study of nine adults with cyclosporine-treated autoimmune diseases, grapefruit juice (5 ounces two times per day with cyclosporine, for ten days) caused a significant increase in cyclosporine blood levels compared with cyclosporine with water.17 The rise in cyclosporine blood levels was associated with abdominal pain, lightheadedness, nausea, and tremor in one patient. Using grapefruit juice to reduce the amount of cyclosporine needed has not been sufficiently studied and cannot therefore be counted on to produce a predictable change in cyclosporine requirements. The same effects might be seen from eating grapefruit as from drinking its juice
17. Ioannides-Demos LL, Christophidis N, Ryan P, et al. Dosing implication of a clinical interaction between grapefruit juice and cyclosporine and metabolite concentrations in patients with autoimmune diseases. J Rheumatol 1997;24:49–54.
BEWARE OF GRAPEFRUIT JUICE’S INTERACTION WITH CERTAIN DRUGS
It seems innocuous enough, but the lowly grapefruit can dangerously boost the action of certain drugs in the body. Healthcare managers may want to warn people of this, as it is easy to avoid.
Antihistamines Seldane and Hismanal and blood pressure medications Plendil, Renedil and Adalat have been known for a while to interact with grapefruit juice.
Now, a new study has found that the widely-used cholesterol-lowering agent lovastatin [Apo-lovastatin or Mevacor] can be added to the list of possible interactions.
Drinking moderate amounts of grapefruit juice can raise blood levels of lovastatin up to 15 times, causing rhabdomyolysis, a disintegration of muscle, and ultimately liver failure. The interaction was reported in the April 1998 issue of the Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics.
“This is very significant and very new. It is a huge interaction,’’ says Dr. Dave Bailey (PhD), a clinical pharmacologist at London Health Sciences Centre in London, Ont. and research scientist at the University of Western Ontario. Bailey was the first scientist in the world to discover that grapefruit juice can raise levels of drugs in the blood. His paper reporting an interaction between felodipine [Renedil, Plendil] and grapefruit juice was published in The Lancet in 1991.
Grapefruit juice interaction has gone “from an academic curiosity to a fundamental aspect of therapeutics,” he says, adding that the list of affected drugs will grow. With lovastatin, he said, it was “a real shocker. We did not predict it would be that significant a risk.’’
Lovastatin is taken by millions of North Americans; it was prescribed 949,000 times from May 1997 to April 1998 in Canada, according to health information company IMS Canada. The statins, says Bailey, are “good, safe drugs when taken properly.’’
Merck Frosst, the manufacturer of Mevacor, is aware of the dangers of grapefruit juice with Mevacor. According to spokesperson Denis Boucher, Merck has submitted a new product monograph (prescribing information) to Health Canada “which includes changes relating to grapefruit juice.’’
But Bailey says changes like that — which would warn doctors of the danger — take a long time. “It’ll take Health Canada two years to get the product monograph changed. It took them four years with felodipine.’’ (His paper was published in 1991 and the product monograph was changed in 1995.)
Other interactions with grapefruit juice:
Antihistamines terfenadine [Seldane] or astemizole [Hismanal].
Certain calcium channel blockers, such as Plendil, Renedil and Adalat.
Anti-rejection drug cyclosporine.
Cisapride [Prepulsid], a constipation drug.
Researchers in Koln, Germany, conducted a sudy using 24 healthy HIV negative male subjects whose average age was 29 years. The men received a glass of grapefruit juice on an empty stomach and then one hour later another glass of grapefruit juice with viagra 50mg. Blood samples were collected over the next 24 hours. a week later the experiment was repeated with water being substituted for grapefruit juice.
Results
Researchers found that the absorption of Viagra increased by 23% when taken with grapefruit juice instead of water. grapefruit juice also delayed the absorption of Viagra. This latter point is important because Viagra is supposed to be taken one hour before coïtus and taking the drug with grapefruit juice may result in disappointment for some users of viagra.
The grapefruit juice used in this study was white juice and supplied by Dohler-euro Citrus NBI,GMBH. Other brands,types, and doses of grapefruit juice may have different effect. The researchers suggest the combination of Viagra and grapefruit juice be avoided.
Men who use protease inhibitors are usually prescribed less than normal doses of Viagra because protease inhibitors can raise levels of Viagra several times greater than normal. So men who use protease inhibitors and Viagra should also avoid taking grapefruit juice with Viagra.
How Grapefruit Juice Makes Some Pills More Powerful
By ABIGAIL ZUGER
or four years, the patient was one of Dr. Paul Pizarik's bigger problems: a 63-year-old Arizona man with heart, lung and kidney disease, and blood pressure that stayed dangerously high despite combinations of a half-dozen different advanced medications.
And then suddenly, to Pizarik's great surprise, the man's pressure dropped into perfect control. It had been magically reduced by nothing more complicated than a six-ounce glass of grapefruit juice that the patient had decided to add to his morning pills.
A few weeks later, his pressure plunged so low that his medication had to be changed all over again.
Researchers have known since 1989 that when some of the common blood-pressure pills called calcium-channel blockers were washed down with grapefruit juice, far more of the drugs reached the blood than when they were taken with a swallow of water instead.
But it is a piece of information that has passed many doctors and patients by, even though the interaction has now been reproduced for other drugs. The effect may be so striking that some scientists are now calling for warning labels about the effects of grapefruit juice on pill bottles to prevent accidental drug overdoses. Others have hastened to patent the chemicals involved and are planning to incorporate them into new combination pills.
"We are harnessing the power of the grapefruit," said Dr. Paul Watkins, a professor of medicine at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, whose research recently clarified why grapefruit alone among citrus fruits appears to make some pills more powerful.
The handful of drugs now known to be involved include some common and potent ones, among them Plendil (felodipine) for high blood pressure and heart disease, Seldane (terfenadine) for allergies, Sandimmune (cyclosporine) to prevent rejection of transplanted organs, and Invirase (saquinavir) for treating AIDS.
What these diverse substances have in common is their fate after they pass through the stomach. Unlike other drugs that are absorbed directly from the intestine into the bloodstream, these are first extensively broken down by an enzyme in the wall of the small intestine.
In research published in The Journal of Clinical Investigation in May, Watkins and his colleagues showed that grapefruit juice appeared to remove large amounts of that enzyme from the intestinal wall.
The result is that less of the drug is broken down, more remains in the intestine and more is then absorbed into the bloodstream over a longer period, just as if the patient had actually swallowed a higher drug dose.
The specific causes appear to be chemicals in the juice called furanocoumarins or psoralens that function like "little suicide bombers," attaching to the enzyme and damaging it so badly that the entire complex disappears from the cell.
But the amount of the enzyme in the intestinal wall varies greatly among people, Watkins said, which explains why the grapefruit juice effect may be serious for some people and unimportant for others.
It probably makes very little difference if people with relatively low levels of the intestinal enzyme take their medicine with grapefruit juice or with water. But for others with a great deal of the enzyme, an unaccustomed glass of juice in the morning may send enzyme levels plummeting and drug levels soaring as much as ninefold.
Dr. J. David Spence at the Roberts Research Institute in London, Ontario, thinks this is what may have happened to a Michigan man who died in 1993 with toxic blood levels of Seldane after drinking two glasses of grapefruit juice. "The problem is that juice is taken intermittently," he said. "And grocers don't take a drug history when they sell it."
Seldane blood levels are increased not only by grapefruit juice but also by many common prescription drugs, and serious heart problems may result. Although the drug is under new scrutiny by the Food and Drug Administration for its toxicity, it remains available by prescription in this country and is sold over the counter in Canada.
In new prescribing information supplied to doctors only last month, Seldane's manufacturer, Hoechst-Marion-Roussel, added grapefruit juice to the list of substances that should not be taken with it.
Although information about grapefruit juice accompanies other affected drugs, it is printed in the tiny type reserved for doctors and pharmacists and seldom makes it out onto the patient's pill bottle. Many other drugs have never been specifically tested for grapefruit juice interactions.
The effect of a glass of grapefruit juice on drug levels lasts a day or more, and it increases over time, Spence cautioned. He favors a practice now routine in parts of Australia of affixing specific grapefruit juice warnings to pill bottles if an interaction is known or might be expected.
Other experts feel that chances of drug overdoses from a breakfast containing grapefruit are too small to warrant major public concern.
"These are generally safe drugs," Watkins said. "I just tell patients, if you're used to taking your medicines with juice, keep doing it. If you're not, don't start."
In fact, the danger of grapefruit juice impresses many scientists less than does its ability to augment drug effects cheaply and palatably without the need for larger doses.
Dr. Leslie Benet, chairman of the department of biopharmaceuticals at the University of California at San Francisco, has founded a corporation called Avmax to evaluate and market substances like those in grapefruit juice that inhibit intestinal enzymes, making drugs more available to the body with less person-to-person variability.
His company has licensed one of the patented chemicals responsible for the effect in grapefruit, and is beginning studies combining it with several prescription drugs.
Other doctors just direct patients to the supermarket. Like many doctors who treat AIDS, Dr. Nereida Ferran, an internist at Beth Israel Hospital in New York, routinely advises her patients taking Invirase for HIV infection to take it with grapefruit juice.
"The blood levels of the drug increase at least twofold," she said. "Many of my patients are doing very, very well on what is supposed to be one of the weaker HIV drugs."
And Pizarik remains aware of grapefruit's double-edged potential. Over time, his patient's initially elevated blood pressure dropped so low with grapefruit juice that the man almost went into shock.
"He became pretty pale and pasty-looking," said Pizarik, who has not given grapefruit juice to any other patients. "I don't know that I'd recommend it again until more studies are done."
An excellent site which discusses the cytochrome P-450 3A4 isozyme at some length.
you should understand the P450 pathway if you are taking bromocriptine and other medications.
the conclusion of the article is something I saw a few times on other sites in regards to grapefruit juice usage:
If you are not currently taking your medications with grapefruit juice regularly, don’t start. If you are already taking your medications with grapefruit juice regularly, don’t stop. The exception to this guideline is for terfenadine (Seldane) and astemizole (Hismanal). Enough evidence exists of the danger of taking terfenadine with grapefruit juice that you should stop taking this with grapefruit juice immediately
With further research, it should be possible to eventually harness this drug enhancing effect of grapefruit juice to our advantage. However, at the present time, it would be more prudent to avoid drinking grapefruit juice when taking any medications that utilize cytochrome P450 3A4 isoenzymes for any of the steps in their respective metabolic pathways
We are talking about Grapefruit Juice Only. Not Grape Juice. Not Orange Juice. Only Only Only Grapefruit Juice
Can grapefruit juice influence ethinylestradiol bioavailability?
Weber A, Jager R, Borner A, Klinger G, Vollanth R, Matthey K, Balogh A.
Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Friedrich Schiller University of Jena, Germany.
The effects of grapefruit juice on the bioavailability of 17 alpha-ethinylestradiol (EE2) after a single oral administration of 50 micrograms EE2 have been investigated. The pharmacokinetics of EE2 were studied in an open, randomized, cross-over study in which 13 healthy volunteers were administered the drug with herbal tea or grapefruit juice (naringin, 887 mg/ml). In contrast to herbal tea, grapefruit juice increased the peak plasma concentration (Cmax) significantly to 137% (mean; range 64% to 214%, p = 0.0088) and increased the area under plasma concentration-time curve from 0 to 8 hours (AUC0-8) to 128% (mean; range 81% to 180%, p = 0.0186). This study shows that grapefruit juice increases the bioavailable amount of EE2. A possible explanation may be that grapefruit juice inhibits the metabolic degradation of EE2. Whether the increased bioavailability of EE2 following grapefruit juice administration is of clinical importance should be investigated in long-term studies.
Publication Types:
Clinical trial
Randomized controlled trial
PMID: 8631189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------
[/b]side note: also be aware that this is a study a 17a hormone, but not a test on AS.[/b]
also, if you are taking 40mg dbol with grapefruit, im unsure if how much you should adjust the dose lower.
also read that over time your body keeps increasing its ability to absorb drugs over time,so after one week of Grapefruit juice with AS your body will be able to absorb more AS in week 2 than in week 1 when drinking Grapefruit juice concurrently.
Increasing effectiveness with grapefruit juice may increase toxicity. Get your liver supps in order.
Europe is the leader in doctors prescribing natural health remedies. The doctors there instruct patients to take GF juice with their medications to lower dosages and costs for patients. This applies to most meds taken orally.
Please read all of the studies I posted below. There some drug interactions to be aware of and also information for and against the use of grapefruit juice.
Currently I am searching for a link to a site that shows a bit more information on taking grapefruitjuice with medications besides the generic "take one glass of grapefruit juice".
Some hospitals have taken grapefruit juice off the list of possible drinks for patients to avoid problems with medication over dosing with medication prescribed by their doctors.
In a randomized study of nine adults with cyclosporine-treated autoimmune diseases, grapefruit juice (5 ounces two times per day with cyclosporine, for ten days) caused a significant increase in cyclosporine blood levels compared with cyclosporine with water.17 The rise in cyclosporine blood levels was associated with abdominal pain, lightheadedness, nausea, and tremor in one patient. Using grapefruit juice to reduce the amount of cyclosporine needed has not been sufficiently studied and cannot therefore be counted on to produce a predictable change in cyclosporine requirements. The same effects might be seen from eating grapefruit as from drinking its juice
17. Ioannides-Demos LL, Christophidis N, Ryan P, et al. Dosing implication of a clinical interaction between grapefruit juice and cyclosporine and metabolite concentrations in patients with autoimmune diseases. J Rheumatol 1997;24:49–54.
BEWARE OF GRAPEFRUIT JUICE’S INTERACTION WITH CERTAIN DRUGS
It seems innocuous enough, but the lowly grapefruit can dangerously boost the action of certain drugs in the body. Healthcare managers may want to warn people of this, as it is easy to avoid.
Antihistamines Seldane and Hismanal and blood pressure medications Plendil, Renedil and Adalat have been known for a while to interact with grapefruit juice.
Now, a new study has found that the widely-used cholesterol-lowering agent lovastatin [Apo-lovastatin or Mevacor] can be added to the list of possible interactions.
Drinking moderate amounts of grapefruit juice can raise blood levels of lovastatin up to 15 times, causing rhabdomyolysis, a disintegration of muscle, and ultimately liver failure. The interaction was reported in the April 1998 issue of the Journal of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics.
“This is very significant and very new. It is a huge interaction,’’ says Dr. Dave Bailey (PhD), a clinical pharmacologist at London Health Sciences Centre in London, Ont. and research scientist at the University of Western Ontario. Bailey was the first scientist in the world to discover that grapefruit juice can raise levels of drugs in the blood. His paper reporting an interaction between felodipine [Renedil, Plendil] and grapefruit juice was published in The Lancet in 1991.
Grapefruit juice interaction has gone “from an academic curiosity to a fundamental aspect of therapeutics,” he says, adding that the list of affected drugs will grow. With lovastatin, he said, it was “a real shocker. We did not predict it would be that significant a risk.’’
Lovastatin is taken by millions of North Americans; it was prescribed 949,000 times from May 1997 to April 1998 in Canada, according to health information company IMS Canada. The statins, says Bailey, are “good, safe drugs when taken properly.’’
Merck Frosst, the manufacturer of Mevacor, is aware of the dangers of grapefruit juice with Mevacor. According to spokesperson Denis Boucher, Merck has submitted a new product monograph (prescribing information) to Health Canada “which includes changes relating to grapefruit juice.’’
But Bailey says changes like that — which would warn doctors of the danger — take a long time. “It’ll take Health Canada two years to get the product monograph changed. It took them four years with felodipine.’’ (His paper was published in 1991 and the product monograph was changed in 1995.)
Other interactions with grapefruit juice:
Antihistamines terfenadine [Seldane] or astemizole [Hismanal].
Certain calcium channel blockers, such as Plendil, Renedil and Adalat.
Anti-rejection drug cyclosporine.
Cisapride [Prepulsid], a constipation drug.
Researchers in Koln, Germany, conducted a sudy using 24 healthy HIV negative male subjects whose average age was 29 years. The men received a glass of grapefruit juice on an empty stomach and then one hour later another glass of grapefruit juice with viagra 50mg. Blood samples were collected over the next 24 hours. a week later the experiment was repeated with water being substituted for grapefruit juice.
Results
Researchers found that the absorption of Viagra increased by 23% when taken with grapefruit juice instead of water. grapefruit juice also delayed the absorption of Viagra. This latter point is important because Viagra is supposed to be taken one hour before coïtus and taking the drug with grapefruit juice may result in disappointment for some users of viagra.
The grapefruit juice used in this study was white juice and supplied by Dohler-euro Citrus NBI,GMBH. Other brands,types, and doses of grapefruit juice may have different effect. The researchers suggest the combination of Viagra and grapefruit juice be avoided.
Men who use protease inhibitors are usually prescribed less than normal doses of Viagra because protease inhibitors can raise levels of Viagra several times greater than normal. So men who use protease inhibitors and Viagra should also avoid taking grapefruit juice with Viagra.
How Grapefruit Juice Makes Some Pills More Powerful
By ABIGAIL ZUGER
or four years, the patient was one of Dr. Paul Pizarik's bigger problems: a 63-year-old Arizona man with heart, lung and kidney disease, and blood pressure that stayed dangerously high despite combinations of a half-dozen different advanced medications.
And then suddenly, to Pizarik's great surprise, the man's pressure dropped into perfect control. It had been magically reduced by nothing more complicated than a six-ounce glass of grapefruit juice that the patient had decided to add to his morning pills.
A few weeks later, his pressure plunged so low that his medication had to be changed all over again.
Researchers have known since 1989 that when some of the common blood-pressure pills called calcium-channel blockers were washed down with grapefruit juice, far more of the drugs reached the blood than when they were taken with a swallow of water instead.
But it is a piece of information that has passed many doctors and patients by, even though the interaction has now been reproduced for other drugs. The effect may be so striking that some scientists are now calling for warning labels about the effects of grapefruit juice on pill bottles to prevent accidental drug overdoses. Others have hastened to patent the chemicals involved and are planning to incorporate them into new combination pills.
"We are harnessing the power of the grapefruit," said Dr. Paul Watkins, a professor of medicine at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, whose research recently clarified why grapefruit alone among citrus fruits appears to make some pills more powerful.
The handful of drugs now known to be involved include some common and potent ones, among them Plendil (felodipine) for high blood pressure and heart disease, Seldane (terfenadine) for allergies, Sandimmune (cyclosporine) to prevent rejection of transplanted organs, and Invirase (saquinavir) for treating AIDS.
What these diverse substances have in common is their fate after they pass through the stomach. Unlike other drugs that are absorbed directly from the intestine into the bloodstream, these are first extensively broken down by an enzyme in the wall of the small intestine.
In research published in The Journal of Clinical Investigation in May, Watkins and his colleagues showed that grapefruit juice appeared to remove large amounts of that enzyme from the intestinal wall.
The result is that less of the drug is broken down, more remains in the intestine and more is then absorbed into the bloodstream over a longer period, just as if the patient had actually swallowed a higher drug dose.
The specific causes appear to be chemicals in the juice called furanocoumarins or psoralens that function like "little suicide bombers," attaching to the enzyme and damaging it so badly that the entire complex disappears from the cell.
But the amount of the enzyme in the intestinal wall varies greatly among people, Watkins said, which explains why the grapefruit juice effect may be serious for some people and unimportant for others.
It probably makes very little difference if people with relatively low levels of the intestinal enzyme take their medicine with grapefruit juice or with water. But for others with a great deal of the enzyme, an unaccustomed glass of juice in the morning may send enzyme levels plummeting and drug levels soaring as much as ninefold.
Dr. J. David Spence at the Roberts Research Institute in London, Ontario, thinks this is what may have happened to a Michigan man who died in 1993 with toxic blood levels of Seldane after drinking two glasses of grapefruit juice. "The problem is that juice is taken intermittently," he said. "And grocers don't take a drug history when they sell it."
Seldane blood levels are increased not only by grapefruit juice but also by many common prescription drugs, and serious heart problems may result. Although the drug is under new scrutiny by the Food and Drug Administration for its toxicity, it remains available by prescription in this country and is sold over the counter in Canada.
In new prescribing information supplied to doctors only last month, Seldane's manufacturer, Hoechst-Marion-Roussel, added grapefruit juice to the list of substances that should not be taken with it.
Although information about grapefruit juice accompanies other affected drugs, it is printed in the tiny type reserved for doctors and pharmacists and seldom makes it out onto the patient's pill bottle. Many other drugs have never been specifically tested for grapefruit juice interactions.
The effect of a glass of grapefruit juice on drug levels lasts a day or more, and it increases over time, Spence cautioned. He favors a practice now routine in parts of Australia of affixing specific grapefruit juice warnings to pill bottles if an interaction is known or might be expected.
Other experts feel that chances of drug overdoses from a breakfast containing grapefruit are too small to warrant major public concern.
"These are generally safe drugs," Watkins said. "I just tell patients, if you're used to taking your medicines with juice, keep doing it. If you're not, don't start."
In fact, the danger of grapefruit juice impresses many scientists less than does its ability to augment drug effects cheaply and palatably without the need for larger doses.
Dr. Leslie Benet, chairman of the department of biopharmaceuticals at the University of California at San Francisco, has founded a corporation called Avmax to evaluate and market substances like those in grapefruit juice that inhibit intestinal enzymes, making drugs more available to the body with less person-to-person variability.
His company has licensed one of the patented chemicals responsible for the effect in grapefruit, and is beginning studies combining it with several prescription drugs.
Other doctors just direct patients to the supermarket. Like many doctors who treat AIDS, Dr. Nereida Ferran, an internist at Beth Israel Hospital in New York, routinely advises her patients taking Invirase for HIV infection to take it with grapefruit juice.
"The blood levels of the drug increase at least twofold," she said. "Many of my patients are doing very, very well on what is supposed to be one of the weaker HIV drugs."
And Pizarik remains aware of grapefruit's double-edged potential. Over time, his patient's initially elevated blood pressure dropped so low with grapefruit juice that the man almost went into shock.
"He became pretty pale and pasty-looking," said Pizarik, who has not given grapefruit juice to any other patients. "I don't know that I'd recommend it again until more studies are done."
An excellent site which discusses the cytochrome P-450 3A4 isozyme at some length.
you should understand the P450 pathway if you are taking bromocriptine and other medications.
the conclusion of the article is something I saw a few times on other sites in regards to grapefruit juice usage:
If you are not currently taking your medications with grapefruit juice regularly, don’t start. If you are already taking your medications with grapefruit juice regularly, don’t stop. The exception to this guideline is for terfenadine (Seldane) and astemizole (Hismanal). Enough evidence exists of the danger of taking terfenadine with grapefruit juice that you should stop taking this with grapefruit juice immediately
With further research, it should be possible to eventually harness this drug enhancing effect of grapefruit juice to our advantage. However, at the present time, it would be more prudent to avoid drinking grapefruit juice when taking any medications that utilize cytochrome P450 3A4 isoenzymes for any of the steps in their respective metabolic pathways
LangeMan
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dutch windmil zei:
Hoe kom je daarbij ?
Dat zijn juist hele goeie, een vriend van mij heeft 6 weken 40mg/dag gedaan
en hij had 12 kilo gewonnen en hield 8 daarvan over.
Ik heb het over dianabol 5mg tabs van akrikhin (komen standaard per 300).
Mischien ben jij een paar neppers tegen het lijf gelopen ?
LangeMan
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Cel zei:
Je kan bij dbol en winstrol only kuurtje beter alles smiddags nemen
zodat je hormonen snachts de ruimte hebben.
Op en afbouwen is ook achterhaalt.
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B.B.Junkie
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Zeker heb ook eens gelezen dat de potjes fakes zijn.
Nu we het toch over Methyl-Testosteron hebben, dat is de werkstof waaruit de tabletten bestaan uit de 300 tabletten bevattende plastic containertjes. Duidelijk valt aan deze op dat ze allen hetzelfde lot nummer en exp datum hebben , het zijn dan ook fakes. Zoals je uit de hier geplaatste vergelijkingsfoto kunt op maken zijn de tabletten uit de strip (blister) dikker dan die uit de plastic container (Tube). Bij laboratorium analyse bleek de werkstof Methyl te zijn.
bron: [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
Nu we het toch over Methyl-Testosteron hebben, dat is de werkstof waaruit de tabletten bestaan uit de 300 tabletten bevattende plastic containertjes. Duidelijk valt aan deze op dat ze allen hetzelfde lot nummer en exp datum hebben , het zijn dan ook fakes. Zoals je uit de hier geplaatste vergelijkingsfoto kunt op maken zijn de tabletten uit de strip (blister) dikker dan die uit de plastic container (Tube). Bij laboratorium analyse bleek de werkstof Methyl te zijn.
bron: [Link niet meer beschikbaar]
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Als deze jongen wil beginnen dan heb ik liever dat ie goed advies krijgt dan dat ie zelf gaat zitten kloten.
Waarschijnlijk heb je een potje van Akrihin. Ik ben het echter niet helemaal met DW eens dat deze niet goed zijn maar dat ter zijde. Aangezien het je eerste kuur is zul je met 25 mg d-boll pd voldoende resultaat hebben. In het potje zitten 5 mg tabs dus gewoon 5 per dag nemen. Neem er de eerste dag maar 1 tweede dag 2 enzo tot je op 5 per dag zit. Verdeel de inname maar over de dag en neem de tabs bij je maaltijden zo zullen ze iets minder zwaar op de maag vallen. Drink wel voldoende water om ook je nieren te blijven spoelen maar goed 2l per 20kg lichaamsgewicht moet je als iedere bb'er drinken. Zorg voor minimaal 3 gram eiwit per kilo lichaamsgewicht en voldoende kcal.
Succes.
Waarschijnlijk heb je een potje van Akrihin. Ik ben het echter niet helemaal met DW eens dat deze niet goed zijn maar dat ter zijde. Aangezien het je eerste kuur is zul je met 25 mg d-boll pd voldoende resultaat hebben. In het potje zitten 5 mg tabs dus gewoon 5 per dag nemen. Neem er de eerste dag maar 1 tweede dag 2 enzo tot je op 5 per dag zit. Verdeel de inname maar over de dag en neem de tabs bij je maaltijden zo zullen ze iets minder zwaar op de maag vallen. Drink wel voldoende water om ook je nieren te blijven spoelen maar goed 2l per 20kg lichaamsgewicht moet je als iedere bb'er drinken. Zorg voor minimaal 3 gram eiwit per kilo lichaamsgewicht en voldoende kcal.
Succes.
Soulreaver
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LangeMan
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Koolhoven zei:
//offtopic
huh 8 liter water per dag voor mij dus ??
Is dat alleen tijdens kuren of bedoel je dat in het algemeen ?
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Jay Impel zei:
Ik nam de dbol ook voor t slapen gaan (10mg)...maar ik zat op 50mg/dag dus mn test. productie was al dusdanig onderdrukt dat in die 7 uur slaap de boel niet weer ff op gang zou komen.
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soulreaver zei:hij zegt niet dat ze niet goed zijn, hij zegt dat ze niet origineel zijn
oh wat ben jij toch ook een misselijk zeikventje he. Dus ze zijn wel goed maar niet origineel ? dus breng ze terug omdat ?
nou nou nou nou wat een verhitte reactie.
Hij zegt toch niet dat ze niet goed zijn? Terugbrengen voor de zekerheid, ik kan het best begrijpen. Ze zijn gewoon niet origineel, dat zegt al wat. Als je originelen hebt ben je 100% zeker van de kwalititeit, bij deze gewoon niet! Achteraf zijn ze misschien hardstikke OK, maar het is wel een klein gokje dat je waagt....
Hij zegt toch niet dat ze niet goed zijn? Terugbrengen voor de zekerheid, ik kan het best begrijpen. Ze zijn gewoon niet origineel, dat zegt al wat. Als je originelen hebt ben je 100% zeker van de kwalititeit, bij deze gewoon niet! Achteraf zijn ze misschien hardstikke OK, maar het is wel een klein gokje dat je waagt....
Soulreaver
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Koolhoven zei:
Ik zeg niet dat ze goed zijn, ik zou nooit niet originele spullen gebruiken. Heb er geen ervaring mee dus kan daar geen oordeel over geven. DW zegt alleen dat ze niet origineel zijn en op de reactie van iemand dat ze maat er 8 kilo mee pakte antwoorde hij dat ze best goed kunnen zijn, maar niet origineel. Dus je weet niet wat erin zit. Misschien wel het goedkope methyl-test. Overigens voor mij af te gaan zitten zeiken, onderbouw eerst een keer wat bro. Je cortisol verhaal van clen hapert aan alle kanten en ik wacht al zeker een week tot je eindelijk met je wetenschappelijke studies aankomt. Je roept een hoop maar onderbouwt niks.
En laten we het nou vriendelijk houden, aangezien ik geen zin heb mee te gaan in de huidige agressieve opgefokte trend die hier over het board gaat.
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