nut van stacken van 2 dezelfde werkzame stoffen?

[Loo]

Hey mede-bodybuilders,

Ik kom vrij regelmatig kuren tegen waarin twee dezelfde middelen (ik neem als voorbeeld primo & winny) worden gecombineerd.
Nu vraag ik me af, wat is het grote voordeel van een combi van twee DHT-varianten. Ze hebben toch nagenoeg dezelfde werking?

Ik heb er zelf ook ff over nagedacht en dit is mijn verklaring;
- omdat winny een oral is zou je hem de eerste paar weken van de kuur kunnen gebruiken (soort kick-start)
- winny bindt beter aan de androgene receptor dan primo; meer kracht

Weet iemand misschien het antwoord?
Het lijkt mij persoonlijk niet echt verstandig om 2 DHT's in een kuur te plaatsen (bijwerkingen), ik zou dan liever een ander middel met andere werking dus met een grotere toegevoegde waarde kiezen.

PS; dit verhaal zou je ook doorkunnen trekken op testosteron; soms zie je kuren met 2 testosteron varianten, als het verschil hem zit in kort-en-lang-werkende esthers zou ik het nog kunnen begrijpen, maar vaak is dit niet het geval. Hoezo 2x testo in 1 kuur?

Trainse!

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[MrJ]

Bind Winny beter aan de AR dan Primo?


Anyway, in een test. kuur zowel cyp. als enth. gebruiken heeft geen toegevoegde waarde, evenals kuren met zowel eq. als deca.

 

[Elmo]

Hahaha gemene maar terechte vraag!
Nee Winny bindt niet beter aan de AR dan Primo.
Integendeel, de meeste DHT's binden niet goed aan de AR in spiercellen.

Bind Winny beter aan de AR dan Primo?


Anyway, in een test. kuur zowel cyp. als enth. gebruiken heeft geen toegevoegde waarde, evenals kuren met zowel eq. als deca.

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[Loo]

ff wat stukjes tekst van big cat 's steriod profiles;

over winstrol;
Winny is also quite effective at promoting strength because it binds very well at the androgen receptor......

over primo;
The strangest thing however, taking into account that Primo is still a DHT (or rather DHB) derivative, is that it is quite easy on the system androgenically as well.
Methenolone is also not overly suppressive of the HPT axis. These are both the result of DHB's 1,2-double bond, which, analog to the parent structure boldenone, reduces the androgenic binding by 50% as opposed to DHT. ...


als ik het ff vertaal; winny bindt erg goed aan de androgene receptor, primo is vrij mild androgeen omdat het 50 % minder bind aan de AR in vergelijking met pure DHT's (zoals winny).

En jullie zeggen dat primo beter bind aan de androgene receptor bindt dan winny.
Hoezo dan?

 

[AAJ]

en ik was net klaar voor mn winny/primo kuur en nu zit ik weer te twijfelen

 

[Elmo]

Beste Loo,

Hier wat quotes uit een eerdere thread van mij over de AR receptor hechting van Nandrolone. Primobolan en DHT's komen echter ook aan de orde.

Veel leesplezier!

Greetz

Elmo

Uit PubMed

Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6. Related Articles, Links


Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to coïtus hormone-binding globulin.

Saartok T, Dahlberg E, Gustafsson JA.

It is unclear whether anabolic steroids act on skeletal muscle via the androgen receptor (AR) in this tissue, or whether there is a separate anabolic receptor. When several anabolic steroids were tested as competitors for the binding of [3H]methyltrienolone (MT; 17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-4,9,11-estratrien-3-one) to the AR in rat and rabbit skeletal muscle and rat prostate, respectively, MT itself was the most efficient competitor. 1 alpha-Methyl-5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (1 alpha-methyl-DHT; mesterolone) bound most avidly to coïtus hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) [relative binding affinity (RBA) about 4 times that of DHT]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids bound strongly to the AR in skeletal muscle and prostate [ RBAs relative to that of MT: MT greater than 19-nortestosterone ( NorT ; nandrolone) greater than methenolone (17 beta-hydroxy-1-methyl-5 alpha-androst-1-en-3-one) greater than testosterone (T) greater than 1 alpha-methyl-DHT].

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Dus MT beter dan NorT/nandrolon/Deca, die op hun beurt beter dan Methenolone (Primobolan), Methenolone beter dan Testosteron en testo weer beter dan Methyl-DHT !

In other cases, AR binding was weak (RBA values less than 0.05): stanozolol (= Winny !) (17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha- androstano [3,2-c]pyrazol-17 beta-ol), methanedienone (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-1,4-androstadien-3-one), and fluoxymesterolone (9 alpha-fluoro-11 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-T). Other compounds had RBAs too low to be determined (e.g. oxymetholone (17 beta-hydroxy-2-hydroxymethylene-17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstan-3-one) and ethylestrenol (17 alpha-ethyl-4- estren -17 beta-ol). The competition pattern was similar in muscle and prostate, except for a higher RBA of DHT in the prostate. The low RBA of DHT in muscle was probably due to the previously reported rapid reduction of its 3-keto function to metabolites, which did not bind to the AR [5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha, 17 beta-diol and its 3 beta-isomer (3 alpha- and 3 beta-adiol, respectively)]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids (only a few synthetic) bound to SHBG (1 alpha-methyl-DHT much greater than DHT greater than T greater than 3 beta-adiol greater than 3 alpha-adiol = 17 alpha-methyl-T greater than methenolone greater than methanedienone greater than stanozolol). The ratio of the RBA in rat muscle to that in the prostate (an estimate of the myotrophic potency of the compounds) was close to unity, varying only between about 0.4 and 1.7 in most cases.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

PMID: 6539197 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

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Van Morenature Amsterdam (zie ook bron lijst)

Quote:
Comparative effectiveness of nandrolone and boldenone

The closest steroid in appearance (obvious effect to the user) to boldenone would probably be nandrolone. Most athletes use these two drugs under similar conditions, typically when there is a need for lean muscle tissue gain or a drug with fewer side effects in general. For these purposes both are well suited, however there are still some noticeable variances in the effects of both hormones. For example, at promoting overall muscle and strength gains boldenone is often proported to be more effective than nandrolone. This may be because boldenone is somewhat more androgenic in nature than nandrolone, due to the fact that it goes primarily unaltered by the 5-alpha reductase enzyme whereas nandrolone is actually reduced to less active form (dihydronandrolone) (3). While this allows nandrolone to be slightly milder in terms of side effects (except for interfering with libido, which can be much stronger with nandrolone as it is too weak an androgen), the lack of strong activity in crucial areas of the central nervous system may also act to lessen its effectiveness as a muscle and strength promoting anabolic. As boldenone is almost fully resistant to 5-alpha reductase, it retains an equal level of potency in both muscle and androgen target tissues.

We also see that in their respective rates of estrogen conversion both nandrolone and boldenone are similar in that they aromatize much more slowly than does testosterone. That is not to say that are equally resistant to this process however. In fact we see than nandrolone actually converts to estrogen at an even lower rate than boldenone does (1). One might automatically think that this is a more beneficial trait, however this would be assuming estrogen serves us no purpose in terms of muscle growth. Indeed this would be ignoring quite a bit of evidence showing just the opposite. For example, we find Primobolan® (methenolone, a non-aromatizable steroid) and nandrolone activate the androgen receptor with near equal affinity (4), and more avidly than does testosterone.

Yet we know that testosterone is more effective at building muscle size. Were 5-alpha reductase the only cause for this disparity, we would think methenolone would be a similarly or more potent steroid than nandrolone, as it is more androgenic (due to the fact that similar to boldenone, methenolone remains unaltered in the presence of the 5-AR enzyme).

But Primobolan is notably weaker as an anabolic compared to nandrolone, making one question if its inability to convert to estrogen is also a key factor mediating its ability to promote growth. We see an interesting trend here. Testosterone (easily aromatized and the least effective AR agonist of the group) is the most potent muscle builder, whereas nandrolone (weakly aromatized, strong AR agonist) is thought to be roughly half as effective. Methenolone (not aromatizable at all, AR agonist potency near equal to nandrolone) is further known to possess even lower anabolic potency next to nandrolone, to spite its near equal effectiveness at the level of the androgen receptor.

We do know a couple of important things about estrogen and muscle growth. This first is that its sodium and water retaining effects of estrogen can greatly enhance the size of muscle tissue. The bulk you see from highly estrogenic steroids is in large part due to intercellular and intracellular water retention, and makes agents like testosterone, Dianabol and Anadrol rapidly acting agents. We also know that the conversion of androgens to estrogens is responsible for enhancing glucose-6-phosphate-dehydrogenase enzyme levels in muscle tissue (5). G6PD is an important regulator of glucose utilization, and plays a vital role in muscle growth and recuperation (6). Clearly the athlete today knows that if you want to put on size, you don't want to get away from estrogen completely. Likewise the low rate of estrogen conversion we see with boldenone may be ideal in that it allows for enough estradiol buildup to help foster muscle growth, yet it should reach a point where we see strong side effects like gynecomastia and excess fat retention.

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Boldenone and Dianabol

It is also interesting to point out that boldenone is also structurally almost identical to methandrostenolone (Dianabol), barring that the latter hormone contains an added c-17alpha methyl group to allow for optimal survival during oral administration. The principal achievement with both steroids was again the C1-2 double bond, which markedly increases the ratio of anabolic to androgenic effect in each case. Athletes however usually fail to notice the relationship between these two anabolics, the two drugs varying in outward appearance so much that use of methandrostenolone is usually isolated to bulking cycles while boldenone is accepted as a mild anabolic for cutting phases. Clearly the more active estrogenic nature of methandrostenolone is the cause for such discrepancy, a trait due to the added methyl group. Although we find that c-17 alpha methylation moderately decreases the affinity of this substrate for the aromatase enzyme, the product here is a different form of estradiol (17-alpha methylestradiol). When we look at testosterone for example, we find that a 17alpha-methylated version (methyltestosterone) represents a more potent form of this hormone. This is because the methyl group does not greatly interfere with the ability of the hormone to activate the androgen receptor, however it does allow it have a lower affinity for the serum binding protein SHBG and exist in a more free and active state (7). Sharing use of the same binding protein (SHBG is also referred to as Testosterone-Estradiol Binding Globulin) and knowing that 17-methylestradiol is near in potency to estradiol (, it seems logical to conclude that 17-methylestradiol would be similarly more active (and explain the greater estrogenic potency of drugs such as methyltestosterone, methandrostenolone and norethandrolone). The structural and characteristic similarities between these two hormones however remain evident.

High Oral Efficacy and Legal Status:

Although one might think 1,4-androstadienedione would be a synthetic hormone at first glance, it has clearly been demonstrated to occur in nature (9). This allows it to be is protected by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA), and legal for sale as a nutritional supplement in the U.S. To support the belief that a 1,4-androstadienedione supplement really works as an effective precursor to boldenone in humans and not just on paper, we can take note of a 1971 study in which an unusually high amount of 17beta hydroxylated metabolites (as high as 22% of the given dose) were recovered in urine after oral administration of 100mg (10). Remember that in order to become active its 17-keto group must be converted to a 17-beta hydroxyl group. In fact 7.1% and 11.1% of the given dose was actually recovered in the form of intact boldenone in the two subjects of this investigation, indicating an extremely notable capacity for this hormone to convert to active form in the human body after oral dosing. It also demonstrates the ability for the C1-2 double bond to resist 17-ketosteroid reduction, a trait far different from testosterone, which produces 17-hydroxy metabolites in much smaller amounts.

Clearly boldenone has a firmly rooted place in the world of bodybuilding pharmaceuticals, standing out as a mild yet potent anabolic for the promotion of lean muscle tissue growth. It has likewise always been in high demand on the black market. The inclusion of a highly efficient steroidal precursor to this potent anabolic steroid in the world of legally available nutritional supplements will undoubtedly come to represent a welcome expansion in choices for the consumer

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.


Referenties

1- Biosynthesis of Estrogens, Gual C, Morato T, Hayano M, Gut M and Dorfman R. Endocrinology 71 (1962) 920-25
2- Relative Importance of 5-alpha Reduction for the Androgenic and LH-Inhibiting Activities of Delta-4, 3-Ketosteroids. Steele R, Didato F, Steinets G. Steroids 1977 331-47
3- Relative Binding Affinities of Testosterone, 19-Nortestosterone and their 5-alpha Reduced Derivatives to the Androgen Receptor and to other Androgen-Binding Proteins: A Suggested Role of 5-alpha Reductive Steroid Metabolism in the Dissociation of "Myotropic" and "androgenic" activities of 19-Nortestosterone. Toth M. Zakar T. J. Steroid Biochem 17 (1982) 653-60.
4- Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: Comparison of the binding to the androgen receptor in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin. Endocrinology 114 (1984) 2100-06
5- Aromatization of androgens to estrogens mediates increased activity of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase in rat levator ani muscle. Endocrinol 106(2):440-43 1980
6- The pentose phosphate pathway in regenerating skeletal muscle. Biochem J 170: 17 1978
7- Binding of 17-alpha-Methyltestosterone In Vitro to Human Sex Hormone Binding Globulin and Rat Ventral Prostate Androgen Receptors. Wiita B, Althea A, Ackerman and Longcope C. Therapeutic Drug Monitoring 17 (1995) 377-80
8- Estrogen Receptor Binding Radiopharmaceuticals: II. Tissue Distribution of 17-alpha-Methylestradiol in Normal and Tumor-bearing Rats. Feenstra A., Vaalburg G., Nolten J., Reiffers A. et al. The Journal of Nuclear Medicine 24 (1983) 522-28
9- Identification of C19 Steroids in Bovine Feces. Miller, W.R., C.W. Turner, D.K. Fukushima and I.I. Salamon: J. Biol. Chem. 1956 220: 221
10- Metabolism of 1-dehydroandrostanes in man. I. Metabolism of 17-beta-hydroxyandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one, 17-beta-cyclopent-1-enyloxyandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one (quinbolone) and androsta-1,4-dien-3-one (1). Galletti F and Gardi R. Steroids 18 (1971) 39-50.


Van Bill Roberts, zie ook mesomorphosis.com

Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin®)

Description

by Bill Roberts - This drug is unique (so far as I know) in that 5a -reductase, the enzyme which converts testosterone to the more-potent DHT, actually converts nandrolone to a less-potent compound. Therefore this AAS is somewhat deactivated in the skin, scalp, and prostate, and these tissues experience an effectively-lower androgen level than the rest of the body. Therefore, for the same amount of activity as another drug at the androgen receptors (ARs) in muscle tissue, Deca gives less activity in the scalp, skin, and prostate. Thus, it is the best choice for those particularly concerned with these things.

Its effectiveness at the androgen receptor of muscle tissue is superior to that of testosterone: it binds better. Yet, it gives only about half the muscle-building results per milligram. This I think is a result of its being less effective or entirely ineffective in non-AR-mediated mechanisms for muscle growth.

It also appears less effective or entirely ineffective in activity on nerve cells, certainly on the nerve cells responsible for erectile function. Use of Deca as the sole AAS often results in complete inability to perform coïtusually.

These problems can be solved by combining with a drug that does supply the missing activity: e.g. testosterone.

Nandrolone is proven to be a progestin. This fact is of clear importance in bodybuilding, because while moderate Deca-only use actually lowers estrogen levels as a consequence of reducing natural testosterone levels and thus allowing the aromatase enzyme less substrate to work with, Deca nonetheless can cause gyno in some individuals. Furthermore, just as progesterone will to a point increase coïtus drive in women, and then often decrease it as levels get too high, high levels of progestogenic steroids can kill coïtus drive in male bodybuilders, though there is a great deal of individual variability as to what is too much.

Incidentally, this progestogenic activity also inhibits LH production, and contrary to common belief, even small amounts of Deca are quite inhibitory, approximately as much so as the same amount of testosterone.

To some extent, nandrolone aromatizes to estrogen, and it does not appear that this can be entirely blocked by use of aromatase inhibitors – indeed, aromatase may not be involved at all in this process (there is no evidence in humans that such occurs) with the enzyme CYP 2C11 being in my opinion the more likely candidate for this activity. In any case, Cytadren, an aromatase inhibitor, has not been found effective in avoiding aromatization of nandrolone.

The drug is moderately effective at doses of 400 mg/week. The long half-life of nandrolone decanoate makes it unsuited to short alternating cycles, but suitable for more traditional cycles, with a built-in self-tapering effect in the weeks following the last injection.

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Zoals je ziet interessant en leerzaam materiaal hoewel er voor wat bereft AAS nog veel te bestuderen valt. Sommige dingen/werking zijn gewooon nog niet voldoende bekend.

ff wat stukjes tekst van big cat 's steriod profiles;

over winstrol;
Winny is also quite effective at promoting strength because it binds very well at the androgen receptor......

over primo;
The strangest thing however, taking into account that Primo is still a DHT (or rather DHB) derivative, is that it is quite easy on the system androgenically as well.
Methenolone is also not overly suppressive of the HPT axis. These are both the result of DHB's 1,2-double bond, which, analog to the parent structure boldenone, reduces the androgenic binding by 50% as opposed to DHT. ...


als ik het ff vertaal; winny bindt erg goed aan de androgene receptor, primo is vrij mild androgeen omdat het 50 % minder bind aan de AR in vergelijking met pure DHT's (zoals winny).

En jullie zeggen dat primo beter bind aan de androgene receptor bindt dan winny.
Hoezo dan?

Klik om te verkleinen...

 

[klaas]

interessante shit elmo...

 

[Loo]

Thanx Bro!

Zeker goeie info!

Heb je wat sites voor me met nog wat van dit soort teksten?
Wel interessant om te lezen

Ciao

 

[Hope]

en iemand die straight-to-the-point kan zeggen wat er daar iinstaat?
(karmaaaa... )

 

[Loo]

@ Hope,
ik weet dat jij aan een kuur primo en/of winstrol zit te denken, en dat je je zorgen maakt over de eventuele bijwerkingen betreffende acne, dus ik zal de info die voor jou belangrijk is ff uitleggen.

Ik dacht dus dat winstrol beter aan de androgene receptor hechtte dan primo. Die stelling werd hier onderuit gehaald;

Primo bindt beter aan de androgene receptor in de spieren dan winstrol.

In je lichaam heb je verschillende androgene receptors; in de spieren, huid, haar, prostaat. Voor alle androgene receptors behalve in de spieren moet testosteron omgezet worden in DHT om te binden.

winstrol = DHT. Dit houdt in dat winstrol 3 x zo goed bindt aan de A.R receptors in je huid, dan aan de A.R in je spieren. Kortom; voor 1 hoeveelheid winny in je spieren zitten er 3 hoeveelheden winny in je huid. Vandaar dat er bij winny vergrote kans op haaruitval, vergrote prostaat, en acne is. Ik denk daarom dat jij een denkfout maakt met het "milde winstrol".

Nu over primo ; primo wordt wel gezien als een DHT-variant, het is geen DHT. Primo is DHB, hierdoor is de binding aan de androgene receptoren (in de huid, prostaat, haar) met 50 % minder dan DHT.

Kortom; winny is DHT, dus is ook in grote mate actief in de huid, primo is DHB en 50 % minder actief in de huid, maar bindt wel beter in de A.R in de spieren.

Snap je mijn beredenatie waarom ik wel primo maar geen winny erbij wil.

Ik zit er zelf over te denken om primo te stacken met anavar.
anavar bindt ook goed aan de androgene receptor in de spieren, maar wordt niet omgezet in DHT. (beetje hetzelfde verhaal dus).
Probleem bij anavar is echter wel; het is een zwak anabool en behoorlijk duur.

Ik hoop dat je iets wijzer bent geworden van dit verhaal.

Voor de mensen die me willen corrigeren in dit verhaal of willen bevestigen dat ik juist beredeneer; graag, want ik vind het ook ****ing moeilijk om het goed te begrijpen.... ik haal alles van de verschillende sites, maar het is jammer dat er niet echt diep op ingegaan wordt, de info blijft oppervlakkig.

Ciao, Lo

 

[Hope]

bedankt dat je die moeite nam!
van anavar mag ik denk héél weinig gains verwachten, dus ik ga denk ik toch eens voor de primo/winny of mss zelfs winny only gaan.

maar als het ooit zo ver is laat ik het weten en hou ik je op de hoogte

 

[Big-T]

Thanx Bro!

Zeker goeie info!

Heb je wat sites voor me met nog wat van dit soort teksten?
Wel interessant om te lezen

Ciao

Klik om te verkleinen...

Winny bindt beter aan de ar in weefsels , uitgezonderd in spierweefsel, omdat hormonen die op dht gelijken weinig tot niet actief zijn in spierweefsel bij de mens.

Zeggen dat winny minder goed aan de ar hecht dan bijv. deca is dus bijlange geen correcte uitspraak. Je moet goed onderscheid maken tussen receptor lokatie. In je post hierboven deed je dat al. Elmo heeft het daar al een tijdje moeilijk mee. (Zie Test/deca discussie tijd geleden).

Er zijn nog andere plaatsen waar DHT wel degelijk veel beter hecht dan testosteron, nandrolone of primo.
namelijk het CZS. Daarom maken dht derivaat steroiden je ook zo sterk.

Het nut van stacken komt er op neer dat je ipv een dosis van 1 enkele as te verhogen, je de eigenschappen van totaal andere aas synergetisch gebruikt (1+1=3)...

 

[Loo]

Thanx

Er moet inderdaad ff vermeld worden om welke receptoren het gaat om verwarring te voorkomen. Maar ik moet zeggen dat het op sommige sites ook onduidelijk staat;

"winny hecht goed aan de androgene receptor", (ja welke, die van je prostaat of je skeletspieren.....)

En nu weet ik meteen waarom je zo sterk wordt van winstrol, weer wat geleerd.

ciao

 

[tokkel]

interessante posts. Hebben jullie toevallig nog meer onderzoeken over DHT? Of waar ik dit kan vinden?
Me vader is nl kaal en ik begin langzamerhand op een aap te lijken met haar op me rug etc. En deze posts maken me het een stuk duidelijker.

 

[Elmo]

Zoek maar eens op PubMed of Google op "androgenetic alopecia" wat gaat over door DHT geinduceerde "male pattern baldness"
Ook via "Finasteride of Propecia" kun je het een en ander vinden.
Ook via "benign prostate hyperplasia" (goedaardige prostaatvergroting, BPH) kun je veel aan DHT gerelateerde onderwerpen vinden


Succes bro.

interessante posts. Hebben jullie toevallig nog meer onderzoeken over DHT? Of waar ik dit kan vinden?
Me vader is nl kaal en ik begin langzamerhand op een aap te lijken met haar op me rug etc. En deze posts maken me het een stuk duidelijker.

Klik om te verkleinen...

 

[Elmo]

-
-
-
-

Winny bindt beter aan de ar in weefsels , uitgezonderd in spierweefsel, omdat hormonen die op dht gelijken weinig tot niet actief zijn in spierweefsel bij de mens.

Elmo: Dat is niet juist. Wat er gebeurt is dat het meeste DHT voordat het bindt aan de AR in spierweefsel door enzymen wordt omgezet in minder actieve agonisten

Zeggen dat winny minder goed aan de ar hecht dan bijv. deca is dus bijlange geen correcte uitspraak. Je moet goed onderscheid maken tussen receptor lokatie. In je post hierboven deed je dat al. Elmo heeft het daar al een tijdje moeilijk mee. (Zie Test/deca discussie tijd geleden).

Elmo: In bovenstaande discussie (test/Deca) heb ik aangetoond dat Deca beter hecht aan de AR receptor dan testosteron.
Ik denk dat jij diegene bent die het daarmee moeilijk heeft.
En dat de receptor lokatie invloed heeft op de werking van een AAS staat niet ter discussie maar heeft niks te maken met de relatieve bindingsffiniteit aan de AR-receptor.


Er zijn nog andere plaatsen waar DHT wel degelijk veel beter hecht dan testosteron, nandrolone of primo.
namelijk het CZS. Daarom maken dht derivaat steroiden je ook zo sterk.

Elmo: Ze hechten niet beter maar hebben een ander uitwerrking. Dat is een wezenlijk verschil

Ze hechten niet beter maar hebben een ander uitwerrking. Dat is een wezenlijk verschil

Het nut van stacken komt er op neer dat je ipv een dosis van 1 enkele as te verhogen, je de eigenschappen van totaal andere aas synergetisch gebruikt (1+1=3)...

Klik om te verkleinen...

 

[Hope]

conclusie: een combi zoals primo/winny is onnuttig?