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Omstreden congres over holocaust in Iran van start
- Topic starter bart82
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Feit: holocaust heeft plaatsgevonde. Feit: miljoenen joden zijn vermoord. Maar mss zijn er heel veel zaken die zo maar aangenomen zijn zonder ze echt goed te bestuderen; En dat moet onderzocht worden in alle vrijheid; Een vrijheid die we in europa niet merer kennen.Ik vind je kortzichtig èn je spreekt jezelf tegen.
Elk feit en bewijs opnieuw analyseren?Een gebeurtenis analyseer je en na een wetenschappelijke en politieke evaluatie zet het zich om in een feit en bewijs, òf blijft het onopgehelderd. Je neemt het woord feit en bewijs in de mond, dat refereerd dus naar historisch vastgesteld.
Wat is dan volgens jou de doelstelling van het 'opnieuw analyseren'van de holocaust dan? Wat valt er in vrijheid te bespreken?
Gaan we nu ook nog graven en opnieuw de feiten controleren om te kijken of Frankrijk in 1998 wel wereldkampioen voetbal is geworden?
Denk je dat ontkenning v/d holocaust voor het Moslim extremisme uitmaakt? Ze zien liever zo veel mogelijk joden sterven. Maar doet natuurlijk wel ter zake als daar een politiek belang voor hun mee gepaard gaat.
En over dat laatste, verdiep je eens in Iran en kom dan opnieuw tot een oordeel, want dat statement is totale verkapte interpretatie.
Wat is er een verkapte interpretatie? Dar ahmadinejad een externe vijand zoket omdat hij de binnenlandse economische problemen niet kan opleossen?
den ke dat dat niet klopt? Niet alleen is dit het oordeel van de meerderheid van Amerikaanse, Engelse, Nederlandse, en Belgische politologen, maar het is ook mijn opinie na een goede studie over het dossier "Iran".
boogie
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Lol, die paar joden wil toch niet zeggen dat er sprake is van een gebalanceerde gastenlijst?
heb ik ook niet gezegd en tevens vertegenwoordigen die joden die daar aanwezig waren een grote groep joden.
boogie
Huge Freak
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ik beweer dat de gastenlijst selectief is. Dat wordt overal breed uitgemeten in de pers. Vervolgens zeg jij:
"lijst selectief?
Waren er geen orthodoxe joden aanwezig? Om neem je alleen de punten die in je kraampje passen?"
Volgens mij impliceert dat, dat je openlijkt twijfelt aan mijn stelling dat de gastenlijst vrij selectief is. Dus dat heb je wel -indirect weliswaar- gezegd.
"lijst selectief?
Waren er geen orthodoxe joden aanwezig? Om neem je alleen de punten die in je kraampje passen?"
Volgens mij impliceert dat, dat je openlijkt twijfelt aan mijn stelling dat de gastenlijst vrij selectief is. Dus dat heb je wel -indirect weliswaar- gezegd.
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Dat betwijfel ik eerlijk gezegd. Neturei Karta is een zeer kleine groep orthodoxe Joden. Zeker niet representatief voor de Haredische Joden, wat al een kleine groep op zich is.
Er zijn nog wel meer van dit groeperingen, maar die vertegenwoordigen geen bijzonder grote achterban.
Onder selectief verstond ik dat je bedoelde dat men alleen groepen had uitgenodigd die de holocaust zoudne ontkenne. Er waren wel degelijk joden, die de holocaust niet ontkenden en duidelijk maakten dat ze daar waren om noch de holocaust te bevestigen, noch te ontkennen, maar om in alle vrijheid over de oorzaken van antisemitisme te bespreken.
@ericr:
inderdaad, het is ene kleine groep maar al zijn het er maar 1000,dan blijft het nog steeds 1000 joden die daar toch waren. Dus het was niet zo dat men alleen mensen uitnodigden die de holocaust zouden ontkennen.
@bur
je hebt geen idee waar je over praat, zoals altijd, dus hou je belediginggen maar voor jezelf.
spiertje16
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van de site van deze joden die aan wezig waren op de conferentie
Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"!
Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127. (Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).
The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.
The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established in 1912 for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.
Over the years, a number of Neturei Karta activists and followers settled outside of Palestine. Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned the country in which they and their families had lived for many generations (having lived there many years prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal family life due to them and their families being persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and agents. This dispersion resulted in the emergence of various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader international scene. These establishments include synagogues, educational institutions, publishing houses and organizations. The establishments in New York include three synagogues in Brooklyn (Boro Park and Williamsburg), three upstate, and organizations include the Friends of Jerusalem in NY, NY.
Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.
There are those who wish to play down the Neturei Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in terms of number.
The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta. Although it is true that the number of families which could be classified as Neturei Karta members or activists per-se is relatively small (several thousand), the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands.
Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.
All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.
Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.
Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).
The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.
The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.
The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.
Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.
According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.
Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.
The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!
en een speech van 1 van de Joden die er was:
Talk prepared by Rabbi Yisroel Feldman of Neturei Karta International to be delivered at the International Conference to review the Holocaust, December 11-12, in Tehran, Iran
With praise to the Almighty may my words find favor in His eyes.
I want to begin with gratitude and great respect to the Iranian government in general and to the Honorable Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei and to His Excellency, President Mahmoud Ahmadinegad.
Much has and will be said at this conference concerning the debate of European Jewry during the Second World War. I am neither a scientist nor a professional historian and am not capable of responding to many of the questions discussed here.
What I propose to do though, is to speak about the morality of what happened to European Jewry and the morality of using their fate as an explanation for other political and cultural activities.
No matter how we may debate some of the details of what was done to the Jews of Europe there is no doubt that they were treated brutally and that this brutality included all men, women and children. The Jews were physically attacked and murdered. Their possessions and homes were taken. They were shipped across Europe like animals jammed into cattle cars with little or no food and water. Millions died. And many of these were defenseless women and children. These are facts. The worldwide Jewish community is by and large descendents of those who survived this horrible hell.
It would probably lend much credibility to those who wish to study the destruction of European Jewry if they would clearly condemn these actions committed during the holocaust. There is no moral justification for what was done.
However, there is also no moral justification for using these events to dispossess and occupy another people who have nothing whatsoever to do with what was done in Europe. Let Europe make amends for what took place if they so desire, not the Palestinians. Moreover, even Europe has long since spent enormous sums on helping those who suffered. It would seem that today the time has come to move beyond blaming whole peoples of the present, none of whom can be described as in any way complicit in things that occurred during the Second World War over half a century ago.
Plus, it is our belief that it is not the appropriate role for Jews when they live in exile amongst the nations to adopt any position of antagonism towards any other peoples or nations. We believe that Jews are called upon to lead by example by serving as a positive role model for all of mankind, not as dictators of public policy.
Zionism violated many tenets of the Jewish faith. It sought to deny the metaphysical reality of Jewish exile and the Divine command that we live at peace with other peoples. Its cruelty towards the Palestinian was and is notorious.
The founder of Zionism, Theodore Herzl, wrote in his diary that he felt the existence of anti-Semitism was a healthy thing because this would make Jews mistrust the other nations of the world and come running to the state he wanted to create for them. He saw fit to even cultivate this anti-Semitism and some of the Zionist leaders refused to participate in attempts to rescue European Jews from the horrors of the inferno of Europe because it suited their own purposes to do so.
The advent of Zionist ideology, even before the creation of the state, met with tremendous opposition from great Jewish leaders who saw in Zionism two major problems: One, that the Jewish people had been commanded not to try and leave exile by force, but rather to live peacefully as subservient loyal citizens wherever they would reside. And secondly, that we had similarly been forbidden from assuming ownership of the land. That these things have come to pass and that they have been achieved through the wide scale oppression of another nation is absolutely in dissonance with Jewish faith and law. The great Rabbis who witnessed the birth of Zionism predicted that this movement would bring terrible catastrophes upon the Holy Land and upon the world, and many refer to this development as the foremost reason for the holocaust itself. The Rabbis saw Zionism as a horribly rebellious phenomenon and felt that by embracing Zionism the Jewish people was invoking the Divine wrath, and in fact, in our time, it is clear that Zionism has created untold tragedy. Throughout the centuries Jew and Muslim lived side by side amicably, but those times predated the Zionist era. The situation is such that we need a miraculous salvation from what Zionism has wrought.
What is most important, though, is that when approaching the all-important topics of Zionism and the holocaust that we keep our balance and moral clarity. What was done to the Jews and to other European peoples, such as the Poles and Gypsies, was a great evil. If its parameters need to be explored, let them be freely explored, but all the while realizing that we are exploring the reality of an evil deed. This is the delicate clarity that is so needed when approaching this sensitive issue.
Similarly, when studying Zionism we need to always distinguish between Zionism and Judaism. Between those caught in its grasps and those actively committing acts of Zionist aggression; Between Torah True Jews and those who have strayed from our faith and traditions;
These are the distinctions that need go forth from this conference. They will lend its deliberations credibility and add to the ultimate goal of peace between peoples, the eradication of all cruelty, and the overall moral and Divine agenda of all mankind.
May G-d be with you.
-------------------------------------------------
het moge duidelijk zijn dat het niet het doel was van de conferentie de holocaust te ontkennen. Wat niet wegneemt dat er daar mss wel eenpar eikels rondliepen die dat wel deden. (of minimaliseerden)
Talk prepared by Rabbi Yisroel Feldman of Neturei Karta International to be delivered at the International Conference to review the Holocaust, December 11-12, in Tehran, Iran
With praise to the Almighty may my words find favor in His eyes.
I want to begin with gratitude and great respect to the Iranian government in general and to the Honorable Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei and to His Excellency, President Mahmoud Ahmadinegad.
Much has and will be said at this conference concerning the debate of European Jewry during the Second World War. I am neither a scientist nor a professional historian and am not capable of responding to many of the questions discussed here.
What I propose to do though, is to speak about the morality of what happened to European Jewry and the morality of using their fate as an explanation for other political and cultural activities.
No matter how we may debate some of the details of what was done to the Jews of Europe there is no doubt that they were treated brutally and that this brutality included all men, women and children. The Jews were physically attacked and murdered. Their possessions and homes were taken. They were shipped across Europe like animals jammed into cattle cars with little or no food and water. Millions died. And many of these were defenseless women and children. These are facts. The worldwide Jewish community is by and large descendents of those who survived this horrible hell.
It would probably lend much credibility to those who wish to study the destruction of European Jewry if they would clearly condemn these actions committed during the holocaust. There is no moral justification for what was done.
However, there is also no moral justification for using these events to dispossess and occupy another people who have nothing whatsoever to do with what was done in Europe. Let Europe make amends for what took place if they so desire, not the Palestinians. Moreover, even Europe has long since spent enormous sums on helping those who suffered. It would seem that today the time has come to move beyond blaming whole peoples of the present, none of whom can be described as in any way complicit in things that occurred during the Second World War over half a century ago.
Plus, it is our belief that it is not the appropriate role for Jews when they live in exile amongst the nations to adopt any position of antagonism towards any other peoples or nations. We believe that Jews are called upon to lead by example by serving as a positive role model for all of mankind, not as dictators of public policy.
Zionism violated many tenets of the Jewish faith. It sought to deny the metaphysical reality of Jewish exile and the Divine command that we live at peace with other peoples. Its cruelty towards the Palestinian was and is notorious.
The founder of Zionism, Theodore Herzl, wrote in his diary that he felt the existence of anti-Semitism was a healthy thing because this would make Jews mistrust the other nations of the world and come running to the state he wanted to create for them. He saw fit to even cultivate this anti-Semitism and some of the Zionist leaders refused to participate in attempts to rescue European Jews from the horrors of the inferno of Europe because it suited their own purposes to do so.
The advent of Zionist ideology, even before the creation of the state, met with tremendous opposition from great Jewish leaders who saw in Zionism two major problems: One, that the Jewish people had been commanded not to try and leave exile by force, but rather to live peacefully as subservient loyal citizens wherever they would reside. And secondly, that we had similarly been forbidden from assuming ownership of the land. That these things have come to pass and that they have been achieved through the wide scale oppression of another nation is absolutely in dissonance with Jewish faith and law. The great Rabbis who witnessed the birth of Zionism predicted that this movement would bring terrible catastrophes upon the Holy Land and upon the world, and many refer to this development as the foremost reason for the holocaust itself. The Rabbis saw Zionism as a horribly rebellious phenomenon and felt that by embracing Zionism the Jewish people was invoking the Divine wrath, and in fact, in our time, it is clear that Zionism has created untold tragedy. Throughout the centuries Jew and Muslim lived side by side amicably, but those times predated the Zionist era. The situation is such that we need a miraculous salvation from what Zionism has wrought.
What is most important, though, is that when approaching the all-important topics of Zionism and the holocaust that we keep our balance and moral clarity. What was done to the Jews and to other European peoples, such as the Poles and Gypsies, was a great evil. If its parameters need to be explored, let them be freely explored, but all the while realizing that we are exploring the reality of an evil deed. This is the delicate clarity that is so needed when approaching this sensitive issue.
Similarly, when studying Zionism we need to always distinguish between Zionism and Judaism. Between those caught in its grasps and those actively committing acts of Zionist aggression; Between Torah True Jews and those who have strayed from our faith and traditions;
These are the distinctions that need go forth from this conference. They will lend its deliberations credibility and add to the ultimate goal of peace between peoples, the eradication of all cruelty, and the overall moral and Divine agenda of all mankind.
May G-d be with you.
-------------------------------------------------
het moge duidelijk zijn dat het niet het doel was van de conferentie de holocaust te ontkennen. Wat niet wegneemt dat er daar mss wel eenpar eikels rondliepen die dat wel deden. (of minimaliseerden)
Little Me
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