Is dit een goeie samenstelling voor een fatburner ?
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nasty^PhysIc
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nasty^PhysIc
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B.B.Junkie zei:
Epdedrine in welke fat burner vind je dit ?
B.B.Junkie
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B.B.Junkie
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Ephedrine Hcl
Our first goal in this endeavour should be to have a product that stimulates noradrenaline. Now some may think it is wiser to opt for other methods of fat loss, but DNP, T3 and corticosteroids will make it increasingly difficult to preserve lean mass. Other still may profer that the use of stronger specific beta-2 or beta-3 agonists like clenbuterol, salbutamol, albuterol or octopamine should be used, but because of their potency they will quickly render the beta-adrenrgic system useless, and only make use of part of the available systems to us (either beta-2 or beta-3 instead of both). The beta-2 receptor is most certainly the prime mobilizer here, where the beta-3 only has minimal if any activity, but has been deemed crucial to continuation of cathecholamine responses under sustained sympathetic activity (21). Most likely it maintains a certain amount of beta-adrenergic stimulation, but without increasing metabolism, so as to spare calories but continue the use of fatty acids for survival. As much as 40% of the activity of ephedrine has been attributed to the beta-3 stimulatory effects (22).
Since ephedrine acts by increasing natural noradrenaline release, it serves our purpose the best. It is also the more natural approach and less taxing on our system than some other fat loss preparations (T3 causes rebound by TSH shutdown, clenbuterol is very strong in increasing heart rate, and the list goes on). As opposed to more specific beta-2 agonists such as the likes of clenbuterol, ephedrine actually seems to have improved effects on thermogenisis after continual use (23). Ephedrine Hcl is our best choice here, although some will no doubt opt for standardized preparations using ma huang. This herb, depending on preparation will contain more or less than the actual 8% ephedra from dose to dose and is hence unreliable. If this is the only thing available to you, it is better than nothing however, but pure ephedrine Hcl should be preferred.
Yohimbine Hcl
Yohimbine is quite critical in the equation. It acts as a potent alpha-adrenoreceptor blocker (strong on alpha2, mild on alpha1). The alpha receptors inhibit adenylate cyclase activity in the cell, increase its breakdown and thus prohibit fat loss. In normal people with normal diets, there is a certain level of adrenergic action. But noradrenaline seems to have greater affinity for alpha receptors, so not enough beta receptors get filled to cause fat loss / protein synthesis. By increasing the noradrenaline release we have already filled all alpha receptors and a greater number of beta-receptors. But if we could block the alpha receptors, then that would lead not only to more potency from the existing noradrenaline / beta-latches, but it would create MORE noradrenaline / beta-latches since less NA is taken up by the alpha receptors. Thus a major strike in the right direction.
A second factor we need to consider is the alpha-2 receptor concentration on our nerve as well, which, when activated, will increase the re-uptake of noradrenaline into the nerve. By blocking this receptor we prevent re-uptake and again, more NA is available to us. So yohimbine interferes with the NA?s auto-regulated negative feedback loop by acting as an alpha receptor antagonist, pre-synaptic and post-synaptic.
This is also very crucial in fat loss or prevention of fat gain in predisposed areas (abdomen and obliques in men, gluteo-femoral region in women), because these area?s have adipocytes that are extremely rich in alpha receptors, but rather poor in beta receptors (ever tried getting rid of those love handles ?).
Caffeine
Apart from the well-documented findings that the combination of ephedrine and caffeine far outperformed either alone (24) in terms of lipolysis, caffeine acts very distinctly as a phospho-diesterase inhibitor. PDE?s are released in the cell as a response to continual beta-adrenergic stimulation and commences the breakdown of cAMP and creates adenosine from it. Adenosine travels outside the cell and has its own receptor, that acts very similarly to the alpha-receptor to block adenylate cyclase activity and stop fat loss. Caffeine has also been shown to prevent this process by blocking the adenosine receptor and seems to offer some benefit in preventing noradrenaline reuptake (25), like yohimbine does. Possibly via the same mechanism (adenosine receptor blockade).
Caffeine also decreases insulin sensitivity, further helping to assure maximal aid in preserving and enhancing the beta-adrenergic system, and possibly helping to prevent wrong doing from eventual lapses in our diet.
Lastly caffeine is a potent diuretic and will reduce water retention in the body, offering us a leaner and more striated appearance.
Forskolin
Forskolin is product derived from the coleus forskohlii plant that has been shown to upregulate the activity of the enzyme adenylate cyclase, which we have previously shown to be important as it creates cAMP accumulation needed for the second messenger response to beta-adrenergic stimulation. While forskolin by itself may have a null effect (it was previously used to lower blood pressure where beta-adrenergic stimulation should increase blood pressure), it should have various useful effects to us. In combination with these other products cAMP accumulation will further decrease any effect from prostaglandins and adenosine receptor stimulation, or alpha2-regulated inhibition. This allows a stable environment for second messenger transport.
Guggul sterones
Guggul sterones are an age-old ayurvedic medicine touted to increase thyroid activity. This has nothing to do with the beta-adrenergic system, and at first may seem rather obsolete. Continual fat loss and lower calorie diets have been known to cause a starvation response whereby T4 to T3 conversion is lowered and the opposite conversion increased to lower thyroid activity and thus slow metabolic rate. This occurs so that we do not use our entire fat supply in just a few days and can stay alive longer under starvation conditions. Now ephedrine has been shown to actually upgrade T4 to T3 conversion or at the very least lower the opposite reaction (23).
But this latter occurrence has been attributed to the continual alpha-receptor stimulation that ephedrine would display under normal conditions, but since we use an alpha-receptor blocker it is unlikely we will be able to make as much use of this benefit, and so the addition of Guggul is advisory, as it has been shown to increase T4 to T3 conversion (26).
Most likely, to avoid early beta-2 phosphorylation we will add yohimbine at a later stage, and should add guggul at the same time.
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
After HSL-P has released fatty acids they just sit there basically. They require protein transport to get them into circulation where they can be used as fuel. If not, and under the high caloric diet we have outlined this is most likely, they will simply be re-esterified again. This is why we do not expect any fat loss. But just to give nature a helping hand we might add some Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC), one of the proteins used to transport fatty acids. Adding too much has no use as supraphysiological amounts have shown little to no benefit, but adding some may increase any possible downregulation of the transport systems and increase the likelihood that some actual fat is used.
Putting it all together
So what sort of doses and what sort of dosing pattern do we need ? Well I won?t bore you with the details, but this particular mix has been most effective :
Product Per dose
Ephedrine Hcl 12.5 mg
Caffeine 100 mg
Yohimbine Hcl 3 mg
Forskolin 20-30 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 200 mg
GuggulSterones 30 mg
You can opt to take 1 dose 6 times per day, roughly every 2.5 hours, or 2 doses 3 times per day, roughly every 5 hours. This is preferably taken between meals when it is most likely there is least insulin interference and most chance of any additional calories being burned that are not from food. For people who have a tendency to get jittery on ephedrine and are bothered by this, I suggest the first dosing pattern which has lower peak doses. For most people I would recommend the 3 a day dosing pattern however.
Our first goal in this endeavour should be to have a product that stimulates noradrenaline. Now some may think it is wiser to opt for other methods of fat loss, but DNP, T3 and corticosteroids will make it increasingly difficult to preserve lean mass. Other still may profer that the use of stronger specific beta-2 or beta-3 agonists like clenbuterol, salbutamol, albuterol or octopamine should be used, but because of their potency they will quickly render the beta-adrenrgic system useless, and only make use of part of the available systems to us (either beta-2 or beta-3 instead of both). The beta-2 receptor is most certainly the prime mobilizer here, where the beta-3 only has minimal if any activity, but has been deemed crucial to continuation of cathecholamine responses under sustained sympathetic activity (21). Most likely it maintains a certain amount of beta-adrenergic stimulation, but without increasing metabolism, so as to spare calories but continue the use of fatty acids for survival. As much as 40% of the activity of ephedrine has been attributed to the beta-3 stimulatory effects (22).
Since ephedrine acts by increasing natural noradrenaline release, it serves our purpose the best. It is also the more natural approach and less taxing on our system than some other fat loss preparations (T3 causes rebound by TSH shutdown, clenbuterol is very strong in increasing heart rate, and the list goes on). As opposed to more specific beta-2 agonists such as the likes of clenbuterol, ephedrine actually seems to have improved effects on thermogenisis after continual use (23). Ephedrine Hcl is our best choice here, although some will no doubt opt for standardized preparations using ma huang. This herb, depending on preparation will contain more or less than the actual 8% ephedra from dose to dose and is hence unreliable. If this is the only thing available to you, it is better than nothing however, but pure ephedrine Hcl should be preferred.
Yohimbine Hcl
Yohimbine is quite critical in the equation. It acts as a potent alpha-adrenoreceptor blocker (strong on alpha2, mild on alpha1). The alpha receptors inhibit adenylate cyclase activity in the cell, increase its breakdown and thus prohibit fat loss. In normal people with normal diets, there is a certain level of adrenergic action. But noradrenaline seems to have greater affinity for alpha receptors, so not enough beta receptors get filled to cause fat loss / protein synthesis. By increasing the noradrenaline release we have already filled all alpha receptors and a greater number of beta-receptors. But if we could block the alpha receptors, then that would lead not only to more potency from the existing noradrenaline / beta-latches, but it would create MORE noradrenaline / beta-latches since less NA is taken up by the alpha receptors. Thus a major strike in the right direction.
A second factor we need to consider is the alpha-2 receptor concentration on our nerve as well, which, when activated, will increase the re-uptake of noradrenaline into the nerve. By blocking this receptor we prevent re-uptake and again, more NA is available to us. So yohimbine interferes with the NA?s auto-regulated negative feedback loop by acting as an alpha receptor antagonist, pre-synaptic and post-synaptic.
This is also very crucial in fat loss or prevention of fat gain in predisposed areas (abdomen and obliques in men, gluteo-femoral region in women), because these area?s have adipocytes that are extremely rich in alpha receptors, but rather poor in beta receptors (ever tried getting rid of those love handles ?).
Caffeine
Apart from the well-documented findings that the combination of ephedrine and caffeine far outperformed either alone (24) in terms of lipolysis, caffeine acts very distinctly as a phospho-diesterase inhibitor. PDE?s are released in the cell as a response to continual beta-adrenergic stimulation and commences the breakdown of cAMP and creates adenosine from it. Adenosine travels outside the cell and has its own receptor, that acts very similarly to the alpha-receptor to block adenylate cyclase activity and stop fat loss. Caffeine has also been shown to prevent this process by blocking the adenosine receptor and seems to offer some benefit in preventing noradrenaline reuptake (25), like yohimbine does. Possibly via the same mechanism (adenosine receptor blockade).
Caffeine also decreases insulin sensitivity, further helping to assure maximal aid in preserving and enhancing the beta-adrenergic system, and possibly helping to prevent wrong doing from eventual lapses in our diet.
Lastly caffeine is a potent diuretic and will reduce water retention in the body, offering us a leaner and more striated appearance.
Forskolin
Forskolin is product derived from the coleus forskohlii plant that has been shown to upregulate the activity of the enzyme adenylate cyclase, which we have previously shown to be important as it creates cAMP accumulation needed for the second messenger response to beta-adrenergic stimulation. While forskolin by itself may have a null effect (it was previously used to lower blood pressure where beta-adrenergic stimulation should increase blood pressure), it should have various useful effects to us. In combination with these other products cAMP accumulation will further decrease any effect from prostaglandins and adenosine receptor stimulation, or alpha2-regulated inhibition. This allows a stable environment for second messenger transport.
Guggul sterones
Guggul sterones are an age-old ayurvedic medicine touted to increase thyroid activity. This has nothing to do with the beta-adrenergic system, and at first may seem rather obsolete. Continual fat loss and lower calorie diets have been known to cause a starvation response whereby T4 to T3 conversion is lowered and the opposite conversion increased to lower thyroid activity and thus slow metabolic rate. This occurs so that we do not use our entire fat supply in just a few days and can stay alive longer under starvation conditions. Now ephedrine has been shown to actually upgrade T4 to T3 conversion or at the very least lower the opposite reaction (23).
But this latter occurrence has been attributed to the continual alpha-receptor stimulation that ephedrine would display under normal conditions, but since we use an alpha-receptor blocker it is unlikely we will be able to make as much use of this benefit, and so the addition of Guggul is advisory, as it has been shown to increase T4 to T3 conversion (26).
Most likely, to avoid early beta-2 phosphorylation we will add yohimbine at a later stage, and should add guggul at the same time.
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
After HSL-P has released fatty acids they just sit there basically. They require protein transport to get them into circulation where they can be used as fuel. If not, and under the high caloric diet we have outlined this is most likely, they will simply be re-esterified again. This is why we do not expect any fat loss. But just to give nature a helping hand we might add some Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC), one of the proteins used to transport fatty acids. Adding too much has no use as supraphysiological amounts have shown little to no benefit, but adding some may increase any possible downregulation of the transport systems and increase the likelihood that some actual fat is used.
Putting it all together
So what sort of doses and what sort of dosing pattern do we need ? Well I won?t bore you with the details, but this particular mix has been most effective :
Product Per dose
Ephedrine Hcl 12.5 mg
Caffeine 100 mg
Yohimbine Hcl 3 mg
Forskolin 20-30 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 200 mg
GuggulSterones 30 mg
You can opt to take 1 dose 6 times per day, roughly every 2.5 hours, or 2 doses 3 times per day, roughly every 5 hours. This is preferably taken between meals when it is most likely there is least insulin interference and most chance of any additional calories being burned that are not from food. For people who have a tendency to get jittery on ephedrine and are bothered by this, I suggest the first dosing pattern which has lower peak doses. For most people I would recommend the 3 a day dosing pattern however.
nasty^PhysIc
Competitive Bodybuilder
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Lijkt zeer interessant maar dat is weer lang wachten zeker ? Zijn er nog andere alternatieven ?
Bijvoorbeeld volgende alternatieven (welk zou je dan kiezen ?)
* Stack 2 ( M double You)
* zelfgemaakte combinatie van ephedrine en caffeïne : epedrine kan ik gemakkelijk halen uit alfavit van bij de apotheek (30mg ephedrini bitartas) en caffeïne (waar ik dat moet halen weet ik direct niet)
Bijvoorbeeld volgende alternatieven (welk zou je dan kiezen ?)
* Stack 2 ( M double You)
* zelfgemaakte combinatie van ephedrine en caffeïne : epedrine kan ik gemakkelijk halen uit alfavit van bij de apotheek (30mg ephedrini bitartas) en caffeïne (waar ik dat moet halen weet ik direct niet)
Laatst bewerkt:
- Lid sinds
- 8 okt 2002
- Berichten
- 486
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- 6
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- 1m85
- Massa
- 90kg
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- 25%
BigK zei:
Kijk hier is:
cafeine
Ik heb een tijdje geleden een thread aan dit onderwerp gewijd, niet alles is meer actueel maar wellicht brengt het je wat verder.
[Link niet meer beschikbaar]
remarxxx
Dutch Bodybuilder
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- 14 okt 2002
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B.B.Junkie zei:
hehe uit de sane cycle van big cat
, ik pak meer de basic ingredienten in mn stack ephedrine hcl, cafeine, yohimbine hcl. Mijn inziens zijn die andere stoffen niet nodig. Ik doe het vooral met mn dieet en laatste weken de stack erbij.nasty^PhysIc
Competitive Bodybuilder
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BigK zei:
geen stack 2, dan zou ik stack 5 nemen! Stack 2 wordt je helemaal vaag en wazig van
OK ... na de thread over de homemade burner doorgelezen te hebben heb ik het volgend besteld :
* L-tyrosine 500mg per capsule
* Caffeïne 200mg per capsule
* Yohimbine HCL van Glenwood 2mg per capsule
* Ephedrine (uit Alfavit) 30 mg per capsule
Is dit ok ? Wat zijn nu de dossisen die ik per dag mag gebruiken hiervan ?
* L-tyrosine 500mg per capsule
* Caffeïne 200mg per capsule
* Yohimbine HCL van Glenwood 2mg per capsule
* Ephedrine (uit Alfavit) 30 mg per capsule
Is dit ok ? Wat zijn nu de dossisen die ik per dag mag gebruiken hiervan ?
Laatst bewerkt:
remarxxx
Dutch Bodybuilder
- Lid sinds
- 14 okt 2002
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- 515
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4CC zei:
agree
B.B.Junkie
Dutch Bodybuilder
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- 21 jun 2003
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nasty^PhysIc zei:
Die info was alleen om te laten zien waarom ik de ingredienten heb gekozen.
Ik vind ook dat er geen ideale ultieme legale fatburner bestaat.
Daarom kun je hem beter zelf samen stellen.
BigK zei:
Dat alfavit ben ik al eerder tegengekomen in threads hier maar ik weet niet precies wat het is... kan ik gewoon naar het kruidvat lopen en een doosje uit het rek pakken? Of bij de apotheek zonder recept?
)
- Lid sinds
- 8 okt 2002
- Berichten
- 486
- Waardering
- 6
- Lengte
- 1m85
- Massa
- 90kg
- Vetpercentage
- 25%
BigK zei:
3 x per dag, 15 minuten voor een maaltijd:
200mg cafeine
20/30 mg efedrine
500/1000 mg Tyrosine
Yohimbine
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B.B.Junkie
Dutch Bodybuilder
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- 21 jun 2003
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